Gfi on Dryer circuit

[tom baker]

Yes this change will stop the three wire dryer installs.
when GFCIs first came into the code for dwelling units they were expensive, $35 is what I paid in 1978. Electricians told me they would install one, get an inspection, and then move it to the next house.

 

[dagray21]

Could you use SO Cord to a j-box with blank cover and a breaker lockout? Or would you need a disconnect?

You would have to read the manufacturers instructions to see if they allow the option of hard wiring.

 

[ptonsparky]

I make more money on a $200 install vs a $50. Minor detail that my general liability insurance goes up because of that safer installation.

 

[kwired]

Why would the manufacturers improve their product when they can transfer their liability to the electrician? A failure of their product now is the problem of the electrician or manufacturer of the GFCI device if someone gets hurt!

Only particular product failure driven GFCI requirement was the dishwashers, supposed to be some component failure that starts fires, yet GFCI is able to respond to this failure. IMO this should have been addressed with product recalls and improvements and not a code requirement.

Other appliances that end up on GFCI protection because of 210.8 is because they are cord and plug connected and the possibility of losing the EGC is the main driving factor AFAIK. Pretty much all those appliances have not specifically required GFCI protection just the receptacle outlet has required it. I haven't agreed with need for some the additions over the years but it has been just receptacle outlets for the most part that were added. 2020 starting to add more then just receptacle outlets though. IMO if they want to protect a hard wired AC unit or other hard wired equipment it at least needs to be 30 or 100 mA GFPE trip level and not 4-6 mA trip GFCI trip level.

 

[kwired]

I make more money on a $200 install vs a $50. Minor detail that my general liability insurance goes up because of that safer installation.

Makes sense doesn't it?

Insurance industry is crooks to a certain extent.

 

[mikeames]

So because one fatality the NEC changes. “ what ever we can do to save one life” which is a noble thing to do, but you must look at the whole situation. Appliance delivery person, probably a newbie, who did not use his God given mind to see H, W, G terminals. What happens if the installed GFCI fails ( because they do fail) and this same thing happens. Do we install two GFCI’s on the dryer/appliances circuit? People need to slow down and realize what they are doing not “we need to get to the next job”

I agree, but isn't the UL requirement that GFCI don't provide power or reset if protection is lost? Like Levitons "Smart Lock".

 

[hillbilly1]

Only particular product failure driven GFCI requirement was the dishwashers, supposed to be some component failure that starts fires, yet GFCI is able to respond to this failure. IMO this should have been addressed with product recalls and improvements and not a code requirement.

Other appliances that end up on GFCI protection because of 210.8 is because they are cord and plug connected and the possibility of losing the EGC is the main driving factor AFAIK. Pretty much all those appliances have not specifically required GFCI protection just the receptacle outlet has required it. I haven't agreed with need for some the additions over the years but it has been just receptacle outlets for the most part that were added. 2020 starting to add more then just receptacle outlets though. IMO if they want to protect a hard wired AC unit or other hard wired equipment it at least needs to be 30 or 100 mA GFPE trip level and not 4-6 mA trip GFCI trip level.

Whirlpool had a big recall on their dishwashers years ago, the heating element would leak dripping water down on components and start a fire. The recall consisted of a couple of tiewraps to hold the wires up, keeping the water from following the wires to the components. LOL!

 

[hillbilly1]

I’d love to hear from the guy who tries to install a GFCI breaker for the dryer on a three wire system. The neutral to case connection for the three prong dryer cord May give that GFCI breaker a run for it’s money...but, hopefully these GFCI breaker requirements on dryers won’t be required in older homes. New installations will definitely require it.
But I could see Home inspector‘s implicating it on their Home inspection reports for home insurance policies.
Who knows, this might be the new spike in our industry. We may have to run New dedicated 4-wire dryer circuits with GFCI protection in older homes every time I Home inspector puts it on his report for a new buyer to get insurance..

It would be just like catalytic converters, changes one type of pollution to another! The neutral/ground bond would have to be removed, and it treated just like an old ungrounded two wire receptacle. So now we have an ungrounded appliance, but is now ground fault protected!

 

[gmedia]

Where do you even buy a 220V GFCI receptacle, or do you have to use a 30A GFCI breaker (for a dryer)?

Chris

 

[Eddie702]

I’d love to hear from the guy who tries to install a GFCI breaker for the dryer on a three wire system. The neutral to case connection for the three prong dryer cord May give that GFCI breaker a run for it’s money...but, hopefully these GFCI breaker requirements on dryers won’t be required in older homes. New installations will definitely require it.
But I could see Home inspector‘s implicating it on their Home inspection reports for home insurance policies.
Who knows, this might be the new spike in our industry. We may have to run New dedicated 4-wire dryer circuits with GFCI protection in older homes every time I Home inspector puts it on his report for a new buyer to get insurance..

That is all well and good but what about apartment houses and condo's?? Their not getting rewired from 3 wire to 4 wire

 

[JDB3]

This means my clothes line needs gfci protection-- oh no....LOL

Unless it is grandfathered, meaning that it is one that your grandfather put up for your grandmother to use. "Note" if you change the line or change the supports for the line, then it will have to meet current standards!

 

[jap]

Then there is just those moments when you have some sort of brain failure. At least I caught it when I did, but I would have tested it when done and figured out something was not right anyway.

I've done this also, and, that disappointing feeling you get when you do something like that lingers on for days seeing as how most of us have been doing this all our lives.

JAP>

 

[MartinK]

These constant changes to the electrical code is very upsetting to me. As if we didn't have a safe electrical system. In Ontario Canada, Electrical Safety Association reported 6 deaths in 2018 in 14+million population. There was 135 people dead in 10 years total. 2019 Ontario Electrical Safety Report It is as safe as AstraZeneca vaccine OKed by FDA !! It is 40x safer than driving !
I wouldn't mind if the changes made no financial impact on affordability of living but it aint so. Newly required GFCI equipment is 800% more expensive than comparable electrical devices, with unproven track safety record. Nobody is hurting from cheap, robust and simple non-GFCI equipment.
Since there is no measureable social benefit to constantly raising price of the electrical installation, my view of the situation is that the industry pressure and very possible corruption at the helm of national electical safety organizations are the only motivation for constant updates and harassment from electrical safety authorities.

Sorry I had to vent out somewhere where people might understand and care Canadian electrical safety authorities are pretty much just shadowing US changes. Homedepot sells the same stuff, and what I said I feel is true in the whole North America.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

I agree, but isn't the UL requirement that GFCI don't provide power or reset if protection is lost? Like Levitons "Smart Lock".

No. UL 943 does not require that the GFCI deny power when it fails to pass the auto test. It permits the device to deny power, but it also permits the device to continue to supply power and provide an audible and/or visual signal that the device has failed.
However if it has failed a self test, and loses power, it cannot be reset.

 

[Ravenvalor]

Looking at the newest code 2020 210.8(A) (8) Laundry area. Is a 240 volt 30 amp dryer receptacle required to be ground fault protected?

If you are working in NC there may be an exemption if I am reading this correctly.

https://www.ncbeec.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/06/Synopsis-of-Changes-of-the-2020-North-Carolina-State-Electrical-Code.pdf

•210.8(A) Dwelling Units The requirement for subsection (A) to include 250-volt receptacles was generally adopted for the 2020 State Electrical Code. However, section 210.8(A) has a new Amendment to exempt clothes dryers, stoves and similar large cooking equipment like ovens from the GFCI requirement; and only if such appliances are also 250-volt. Thus, a 120-volt cooktop is not covered by the Amendment’s exception, neither is a 250-volt window air conditioner receptacle in a garage.

 

[romex jockey]

IMO this should have been addressed with product recalls and improvements and not a code requirement.

our NRTL's sold us out long ago kwired

~RJ~

 

[kwired]

No, money is the reason. . A justification isnt necessarily true or valid. Dont code change proposals need a justification?

Most the GFCI changes the past 10 years or so have little to no real justification IMO. Potentially missing EGC pins on cord caps for 5-15 and 5-20 plugs was good justification. If you can assure no loss of EGC, a GFCI isn't really needed. The loss of EGC on many the things that have been added recently isn't that great without some intentional actions by users or unqualified installers who generally won't be using a GFCI anyway unless an inspector is involved.

 

[kwired]

Thank you, I did read where all 125 through 250 volt receptacles had to be Gfi protected I just see it referenced.

I'd have to check again but I believe it is worded 150 volts or less to ground. This mostly means 240 volt delta (corner ground or circuits using a high leg conductor) would not need GFCI. Probably mostly because they don't have GFCI's that will operate on those systems (or at least not enough of them to put this into code yet)

 

[kwired]

The code has expanded the use of GFCI protection. Recent requirements were vending machines and dishwashers. Now the requirement has expanded to washers and dryers. If there truly were a need for this protection why has this not been addressed by the manufacturers of the appliances? If users are being injured by the appliances would it not drive the manufactures to improve the safety of their products?

Technically washers and dryers are not required to be GFCI protected. The code is requiring receptacles that operate at 150 volts or less to ground in laundry areas (as well as some other areas) to be GFCI protected. If your washer or dryer isn't connected via cord and plug it wouldn't require GFCI under current wording in 2020.

 

[kwired]

This means my clothes line needs gfci protection-- oh no....LOL

only if it is cord and plug connected