GFIC
- Thread starter Esthy
- Start date
- Status
- Location
- Connecticut
- Occupation
- Engineer
All 15 and 20A, 125V receptacles in kitchens shall be have GFCI protection. See 210.8(B)(2).
Rich Elec.
Senior Member
- Location
- Pennsylvania
If the GFCI is tripping for the equipment, look for the reason. The GFCI is doing its job.
For the refrigerator, offer to install monitoring equipment. There are some devices that are cheap in price (basic in notification), and expensive (extensive in notification).
For the refrigerator, offer to install monitoring equipment. There are some devices that are cheap in price (basic in notification), and expensive (extensive in notification).
yes. there are people who try make the definition of word 'all' more vague. The exceptions for single receptacle behind piece of equipment are gone in 2008 nec.
audible alarm gfci receptacle
http://www.legrand.us/passandseymour/gfcis-outlets/audible-alarm/1595traw.aspx
audible alarm gfci receptacle
http://www.legrand.us/passandseymour/gfcis-outlets/audible-alarm/1595traw.aspx
mgookin
Senior Member
- Location
- Fort Myers, FL
- Occupation
- Retired inspector, plans examiner & building official
That is cool! :thumbsup:
Thanks. The chief engineer asked me to remove GFICs in this kitchen and install the standard ones. I just starting working here after coming from retirement in residential and I am really uncomfortable in doing so, but the audible ones are a marvelous idea and I will try to sell those to him. THANKS a lot.
kwired
Electron manager
- Location
- NE Nebraska
- Occupation
- EC
I find that to be true for probably 95%+ of the time GFCI tripping is an issue. Find out what is wrong with the appliance being used - there are reasons they decided we need to use GFCI protection in these areas.
I have started to use those for receptacles intended to supply refrigerators and freezers where GFCI is necessary, not really that much more then the cost of a regular GFCI receptacle and costs nothing extra to install.
kwired
Electron manager
- Location
- NE Nebraska
- Occupation
- EC
Make sure to have him sign a piece of paper that says he is at least as liable for any injury or death that could occur as you are for doing this, in hope he will get the message. If he would happen to agree, I still wouldn't be very willing to remove the GFCI's, really cheap ones may be questionable, but all the well known brands generally do what they are supposed to do with little false tripping.
kwired
Electron manager
- Location
- NE Nebraska
- Occupation
- EC
Quick search I came up with this for something pretty inexpensive, or you could probably go with something more sophisticated and more expensive and even capable of calling you when it goes into alarm.
- Location
- Massachusetts
I agree, you can get anything from a basic battery powered magnetic alarm to very sophisticated systems.
They can dial out or email out or blue tooth connect, wifi connect etc.
I suggest Goggling 'freezer alarm system' or 'refrigerator alarm system'. There are many available as many restaurants and medical facilities use them.
As far as removing the GFCI, there is not a chance I would do that. If the chief engineer wants to remove it they will have to do it themselves. Regardless of any paper work I am legally and morally responsible for the work I do. Sorry if that sounds over the top but do not remove GFCI protection.
ptonsparky
Tom
- Occupation
- EC - retired
...
As far as removing the GFCI, there is not a chance I would do that. If the chief engineer wants to remove it they will have to do it themselves. Regardless of any paper work I am legally and morally responsible for the work I do. Sorry if that sounds over the top but do not remove GFCI protection.
The only time I will remove GFCI protection is if I am putting in new. They work.
kwired
Electron manager
- Location
- NE Nebraska
- Occupation
- EC
I wouldn't remove the GFCI either, was mentioning the paper as more of a threat to hopefully wake up the engineer that suggested removing it.I agree, you can get anything from a basic battery powered magnetic alarm to very sophisticated systems.
They can dial out or email out or blue tooth connect, wifi connect etc.
I suggest Goggling 'freezer alarm system' or 'refrigerator alarm system'. There are many available as many restaurants and medical facilities use them.
As far as removing the GFCI, there is not a chance I would do that. If the chief engineer wants to remove it they will have to do it themselves. Regardless of any paper work I am legally and morally responsible for the work I do. Sorry if that sounds over the top but do not remove GFCI protection.
Sorry to continue in this matter, but he mentioned that the reason the GFIC are tripping is because those appliances pull to much current (?), maybe I am wrong but is there is too much current the breaker will trip and the over current has nothing to do with the GFIC ... Does it? He has been as a CE for many years, I respect his opinion but .....
jumper
Senior Member
- Location
- 3 Hr 2 Min from Winged Horses
CE is incorrect. A GFCI provides no over current protection.
kwired
Electron manager
- Location
- NE Nebraska
- Occupation
- EC
GFCI is not an overcurrent device, and should carry overload conditions indefinitely - or at least until the overload condition causes other problems that turn into ground faults.
GFCI is monitoring current in on one conductor and current out on the other circuit conductor, with normal working equipment those values must be the same. Now if something in the protected line is leaking current to anywhere except a monitored conductor the GFCI will trip. The trip threshold is only 4 to 6 mA, which is not much at all for current to the equipment, but is enough to cause harm to a person at such low levels, and is intended to protect people from shock, and not so much to protect the equipment. When they do want to protect equipment the trip level is usually in the 30 or 100 mA range, but those devices are not intended for people protection and technically are not called GFCI - though many call them that.
- Location
- Massachusetts
No reason to be sorry, this is exactly the kind of thing the forum is for and is good at.
Its crazy to remove them where they are required. Ever since I keep hearing these new cases where they are charging the electricians with homicide when people get killed, I don't even think of doing anything like that. Remember that case in Texas at a hotel? here's a link
Electricians charged in electrocution of man at southwest Houston hotel pool
http://abc13.com/archive/9318758/
I finally, NEC on hand, convinced him about those GFICs. When I showed him the subpanels where those circuits for the GFICs where (after many years he didn?t know) he went berserk because many of the breakers are 15 Amps and told me to replace those for 20 Amps breakers because in commercial facilities shouldn?t NEVER-EVER have 15 Amps breakers! I am going to open those panels on Monday, but if those conductors are 14 AWG I shouldn?t replace the 15 Amps for 20s. He mentioned table (NEC 2014) 310.15 (B)(17) ? but the note at 240.4(D) specified (D4) 14 AWG Copper 15 amperes. I don?t want to jeopardize my job, it is very difficult is for a 70 years old get a job, but something doesn?t make sense ? Is his statement true? I don?t know if this commercial thing is too different or it is because I am dealing with an ?.. person.
kwired
Electron manager
- Location
- NE Nebraska
- Occupation
- EC
This is not a requirement in the NEC.
Many figure it as a good design choice though.
In general most receptacles probably is a good idea - you don't always know exactly what the load will be. Fixed lighting or other fixed loads - if you don't have the load on a particular circuit why is 20 amps necessary?
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