This is a High-rise, they took some permits in the past for the common areas, but all units was/are been remodeled "on close doors", no permits, no inspections by the handymen staff. The whole system is grounded by conduit (metal raceway), I see not problem with that (I always prefer "my green conductor, but ...) so I don't see necessary to tap the neutral. It is not dangerous to tap the neutral in this system or any system? kwired I really need your expertise here, I am going to see the HR next week. The situation here is a time bomb, an accident waiting to happens. Regarding plumbing: the whole drain/vent situation is compromised as gurgling drains, slow drains, sewer gases in the units, many drains impossible to snake because instead of bends they use 90 (simple explanation, this is another matter that I discussing in the plumber forum) and "those 90s are inside the walls and I found one that they wasn't able to conceal and they did on the outside (see photo) and the whole fire penetrations are compromised as those handymen penetrate any wall/ceiling with not understanding of building codes.
GFIC
- Thread starter Esthy
- Start date
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While I am waiting for the pros to guide me, I have a course in VIDEO CASSETES by Mike Holt, attached photo, but I don't want to insult anyone offering those old videos cassettes, but there are the electrical basis for a student and I giving to however want those. They can be transfer to CDs, please, again don't get offended
kwired
Electron manager
- Location
- NE Nebraska
- Occupation
- EC
250.118 has a long list of permitted metal raceways, cable types that are permitted to serve as the equipment grounding conductor, but for the most part any listed metal raceway or metal sheathed cable is permitted to be used as the EGC.
as do many others, but that is a design choice and not a code requirement.
To do so is a violation of 250.30(A) (with some exceptions, and they have lessened over the years). The hazard is voltage rise from the "neutral current" on what is otherwise normally considered non current carrying parts.
(with some exceptions, and they have lessened over the years). I am a little confused about this. I never joint (only worked in service residential) the neutrals and grounding conductors outside the main panels, certain exceptions as 3 prongs dryers, stoves, etc., but that are on the main panels. is this is the situation, so he's right to tap the neutral even as the system is grounded by the metal raceway. I want to be sure about this, so I can discuss this with him and HR
kwired
Electron manager
- Location
- NE Nebraska
- Occupation
- EC
Those exceptions are mostly limited to just ranges and dryers - and for nearly 20 years now just for existing installations, and the other most common exception is buildings served from another building or structure (basically via a feeder) but that also is for existing installations, but has only changed back in 2008 NEC. Pretty much everything else you keep "grounded" (the neutral in most instances) separate from the "grounding" conductors beyond service equipment.
Introduce just one downstream connection between the two - even on a measly 15 amp circuit, and you mess up the whole concept of keeping them separate, and can have current flowing on any or all grounded objects that are not otherwise intended to carry current. Often this can go on for a very long time without any noticeable effects, but have the right component removed from the path(s) and then you have voltages suddenly appear where they are not expected.
kwired
Electron manager
- Location
- NE Nebraska
- Occupation
- EC
I'll give you one example of a service call I once encountered where this topic applied.
Customer called me out because they were doing some painting (in a mobile/manufactured home, not sure exactly which but not all that important to the facts), when they unplugged the electric dryer they had lights dim in some areas, brighten in others, and damage to some electronic equipment throughout the house.
What I found was this home was properly installed with a separate neutral and equipment grounding conductor from the external service to the home's distribution panel, but the neutral had failed. Someone did not remove the internal neutral to frame bonding jumper from the dryer when it was last replaced, so this link was the only thing allowing neutral current to take a low impedance path even though it was via an EGC.
When they unplugged the dryer they interrupted that path and of course had the issues they had. Now a bad neutral would not be something desirable but had it not been for the path provided by the improperly installed jumper that ultimate failure may not have come so suddenly and maybe the problem is discovered a little more gently with lights dimming/brightening with load changes instead of sudden complete open circuit.
Customer called me out because they were doing some painting (in a mobile/manufactured home, not sure exactly which but not all that important to the facts), when they unplugged the electric dryer they had lights dim in some areas, brighten in others, and damage to some electronic equipment throughout the house.
What I found was this home was properly installed with a separate neutral and equipment grounding conductor from the external service to the home's distribution panel, but the neutral had failed. Someone did not remove the internal neutral to frame bonding jumper from the dryer when it was last replaced, so this link was the only thing allowing neutral current to take a low impedance path even though it was via an EGC.
When they unplugged the dryer they interrupted that path and of course had the issues they had. Now a bad neutral would not be something desirable but had it not been for the path provided by the improperly installed jumper that ultimate failure may not have come so suddenly and maybe the problem is discovered a little more gently with lights dimming/brightening with load changes instead of sudden complete open circuit.
- Location
- Tennessee NEC:2017
- Occupation
- Semi-Retired Electrician
This thread is confusing the life out of me!
It keeps going in 15 different directions.
@ OP (Esthy)
What exactly are you asking? What is your disagreement with the other electrician? Who is this handyman you brought into the picture?
If all you need to know is if it is correct to bond the neutral & ground past the main disconnect/panel, then the answer is no. That is not allowed as kwire explained.
It keeps going in 15 different directions.
@ OP (Esthy)
What exactly are you asking? What is your disagreement with the other electrician? Who is this handyman you brought into the picture?
If all you need to know is if it is correct to bond the neutral & ground past the main disconnect/panel, then the answer is no. That is not allowed as kwire explained.
I apologize, I know it is confusing, mea culpa, but maybe reading the whole thread will clarify or maybe not. I am not a native and been old complicate things but thanks Little Bill for your response as I appreciate all advises from the forum.
Anyone interested in the video cassettes?
but thanks Little Bill for your response as I appreciate all advises from the forum.Anyone interested in the video cassettes?
david
Senior Member
- Location
- Pennsylvania
I do not see anything wrong with your understanding of the code. You were asked to remove GFCI protection in the kitchen, asked to remove 15 amp breakers and replace with 20 amp breakers without any consideration for conduit fill or anything else other than this is a commercial application. You found neutrals connected to equipment grounds which would be referred to by a lot of electricians as boot legged, except there was already a conduit system for equipment grounding.
You now have a resident not knowing who to trust you, or the staff that been there perhaps the ones that have no understanding of what your concerns are.
Only you can decide if it is the right thing to walk away now, let us know what happens after your meeting.
By the way I thought it was generous of you to offer those tapes, I am sure you got use of them over the years
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