Ground rod - angle of installation

[kwired]

I did work construction for some years, we never used the word "vertical", it was always "plumb" and "level". We used 2/4/8ft levels to determine both "level" and "plumb", and then with bubble levels could get a sense of pitch depending on what lines were on the bubble. I never saw a digital inclinometer level in that trade, probably too expensive at the time.

I was just noting the NEC seems to throw in extra words when it's technically not needed.

You are welcome to submit possible changes.

sometimes when they make a change wording gets a little workover the next code cycle as it is discovered it could have been worded better. The section in question here AFAIK has been the way it is for fairly long time though.

 

[goldstar]

Kenny clamps are not required, and as far as I know NM cable connectors are not listed for single grounding electrode conductors. The small holes are provided by the panel manufacturer and are there for the installation of the GEC. The torque requirement is ambiguous as to how it's enforced so there's not much argument there.

I would fight tooth and nail on the GEC installation since you have done it correctly.

Sorry I’m just getting back to this thread but I’ve we’ve been in a power outage since Tuesday. A large tree was blown down in a rural area and snapped a utility pole in half. My generator came on automatically but the Internet went down as a result of the damage. I’ve been out repairing services for 3 solid days (not complaining - the $$$ are great).

Anyway, I wrote an e-mail to the State DCA Code Assistance Unit and received a reply. Regarding the small KO’s - they agreed that they are meant for GEC wire entry. The EI insisted I remove them and put them through a roamed connector because “he doesn’t like to see EC’s use those entry ports.” Now, if this we’re a State-wide mandate I would understand but it is not and the EI cannot and should not rule based on his personal opinions.

As far as the torquing of service conductors inside the breaker panel, I will meet the EI at the residence and have him witness the tightening. I don’t understand why he doesn’t want to witness the meter lugs being torqued. Go figure.

 

[infinity]

Anyway, I wrote an e-mail to the State DCA Code Assistance Unit and received a reply. Regarding the small KO’s - they agreed that they are meant for GEC wire entry. The EI insisted I remove them and put them through a roamed connector because “he doesn’t like to see EC’s use those entry ports.” Now, if this we’re a State-wide mandate I would understand but it is not and the EI cannot and should not rule based on his personal opinions.

As far as the torquing of service conductors inside the breaker panel, I will meet the EI at the residence and have him witness the tightening. I don’t understand why he doesn’t want to witness the meter lugs being torqued. Go figure.

Yes "doesn't like" is not part of the electrical inspection. He cannot make up his own rules because he doesn't like what it says in the NEC. Go to the next town over and install a Romex connector and the EI fails you because they're not listed for a single #6 conductor. Your guy wants you to correct a non-violation with a violation.

He probably doesn't want to touch the meter enclosure because it's energized.

 

[kwired]

Sorry I’m just getting back to this thread but I’ve we’ve been in a power outage since Tuesday. A large tree was blown down in a rural area and snapped a utility pole in half. My generator came on automatically but the Internet went down as a result of the damage. I’ve been out repairing services for 3 solid days (not complaining - the $$$ are great).

Anyway, I wrote an e-mail to the State DCA Code Assistance Unit and received a reply. Regarding the small KO’s - they agreed that they are meant for GEC wire entry. The EI insisted I remove them and put them through a roamed connector because “he doesn’t like to see EC’s use those entry ports.” Now, if this we’re a State-wide mandate I would understand but it is not and the EI cannot and should not rule based on his personal opinions.

As far as the torquing of service conductors inside the breaker panel, I will meet the EI at the residence and have him witness the tightening. I don’t understand why he doesn’t want to witness the meter lugs being torqued. Go figure.

I don't understand why if he wants to see any termination tightened why he doesn't want to see all terminations tightened.

When it comes to a poor connection causing a "glowing connection" I myself have more concern over those at switches and receptacles causing a fire than the main lugs in the service panel. AFCI's won't catch this either.

 

[infinity]

For the torque witnessing this is something that the State DCA should be involved in. Since in NJ we have a unified State electrical code they need to come up with guidelines as to how this is enforced so that the process is the same across the enitire state.

 

[kwired]

For the torque witnessing this is something that the State DCA should be involved in. Since in NJ we have a unified State electrical code they need to come up with guidelines as to how this is enforced so that the process is the same across the enitire state.

Watch what you wish for, next you will have an inspector assigned to every crew and will watch the entire installation as it happens, guess in theory there should be no corrections needed after completion.✔

 

[infinity]

Watch what you wish for, next you will have an inspector assigned to every crew and will watch the entire installation as it happens, guess in theory there should be no corrections needed after completion.✔

The inspectors around here are in such a hurry that will probably never happen. I would bet that Goldstar's inspection lasted less than 5 minutes.

 

[kwired]

The inspectors around here are in such a hurry that will probably never happen. I would bet that Goldstar's inspection lasted less than 5 minutes.

Won't need to be in a hurry if every crew has one that watches their every move.
Oh, your permits and inspection fees will need to go up pretty drastically to pay all those extra inspectors needed.

 

[Hv&Lv]

The inspectors around here are in such a hurry that will probably never happen. I would bet that Goldstar's inspection lasted less than 5 minutes.

Here hurry isn’t a problem..

I had a big conversion job I was doing at a church, removing really old pole transformers from the church basement with the 13,200 volt UG lines coming into the church, and installing service wires to a new CT cabinet I installed earlier so the POCO could get the transformers on the pole. I’m sure most here have had this type of job at some time or another..

anyway... I met with the inspector two weeks before the job, and lined it up for a Friday to be done so Church could operate as usual. Had an appointment and everything for 2:00 that Friday. I called him about 3:30 wondering where he was..

He told me he was on the way to the beach and forgot about me, but go ahead and have the POCO connect. I handed the phone to the POCO guy (whom I worked with years ago as a contractor), and the inspector passed the install over the phone!

 

[kwired]

Here hurry isn’t a problem..

I had a big conversion job I was doing at a church, removing really old pole transformers from the church basement with the 13,200 volt UG lines coming into the church, and installing service wires to a new CT cabinet I installed earlier so the POCO could get the transformers on the pole. I’m sure most here have had this type of job at some time or another..

anyway... I met with the inspector two weeks before the job, and lined it up for a Friday to be done so Church could operate as usual. Had an appointment and everything for 2:00 that Friday. I called him about 3:30 wondering where he was..

He told me he was on the way to the beach and forgot about me, but go ahead and have the POCO connect. I handed the phone to the POCO guy (whom I worked with years ago as a contractor), and the inspector passed the install over the phone!

I think you were lucky he even answered the phone in that situation.

 

[Hv&Lv]

I think you were lucky he even answered the phone in that situation.

Agree totally.. He is the ONLY EI for the city

 

[goldstar]

For the torque witnessing this is something that the State DCA should be involved in. Since in NJ we have a unified State electrical code they need to come up with guidelines as to how this is enforced so that the process is the same across the enitire state.

Actually, he told me that I could take a photo while I was torquing and send it to him as long as it had a date stamp on the photo. Then he said, as long as I have to come back and inspect the ground wires anyway I will witness the torquing.

I wish these EI’s would get the same CEU classes as us. We will have a long talk !!!

 

[goldstar]

Watch what you wish for, next you will have an inspector assigned to every crew and will watch the entire installation as it happens, guess in theory there should be no corrections needed after completion.✔

I’m guessing somewhere down the line and in some Code cycle we will end up having to provide documentation verifying all connections on all service equipment and all devices will have to be provided. Hopefully I will be retired by then. And of course the prices on all jobs will go accordingly,

 

[infinity]

Actually, he told me that I could take a photo while I was torquing and send it to him as long as it had a date stamp on the photo. Then he said, as long as I have to come back and inspect the ground wires anyway I will witness the torquing.

I wish these EI’s would get the same CEU classes as us. We will have a long talk !!!

That's why I suggested that the DCA get on board so we're all on the same page.

 

[kwired]

I’m guessing somewhere down the line and in some Code cycle we will end up having to provide documentation verifying all connections on all service equipment and all devices will have to be provided. Hopefully I will be retired by then. And of course the prices on all jobs will go accordingly,

I don't see it making NEC but can see a local jurisdiction here and there thinking they need to enforce things that way.

If it does make NEC I'm done, too many other BS code sections already over the years. We have places around here where an inspector has to drive 100 miles to reach the far corners of his "district" they can't be called on for observing every little detail just not practical for them or the installers.

 

[goldstar]

The inspectors around here are in such a hurry that will probably never happen. I would bet that Goldstar's inspection lasted less than 5 minutes.

Funny you should mention that. One of our CEU instructors (an EI) once told us “Listen fellas, this is the way I want to inspect your jobs, when I pull up to a job and a favorite song of mine is playing on the radio, I want to inspect that job, get back in my car and have the same song playing.”

Most of the small towns in my area cannot afford to have full time EI’s. So, many of them inspect for several towns and are only available two days a week.

 

[infinity]

Funny you should mention that. One of our CEU instructors (an EI) once told us “Listen fellas, this is the way I want to inspect your jobs, when I pull up to a job and a favorite song of mine is playing on the radio, I want to inspect that job, get back in my car and have the same song playing.”

Most of the small towns in my area cannot afford to have full time EI’s. So, many of them inspect for several towns and are only available two days a week.

Sounds like Bob F.

 

[goldstar]

Sounds like Bob F.

Bingo

 

[hillbilly1]

We have a customer that is anal about torquing and documenting everything including receptacles! If you want to turn off a breaker, doesn't matter what it runs, whether its a sign or exit light, you have to submit a request to their maintenance department at corporate, then have double custody signed by the person that turns it off, with a second person signing that the first person turned it off, then the same when turning it back on. No mention of LOTO! Banks have too much money!

 

[kwired]

We have a customer that is anal about torquing and documenting everything including receptacles! If you want to turn off a breaker, doesn't matter what it runs, whether its a sign or exit light, you have to submit a request to their maintenance department at corporate, then have double custody signed by the person that turns it off, with a second person signing that the first person turned it off, then the same when turning it back on. No mention of LOTO! Banks have too much money!

If it is a bank they are more concerned about what computer system may have gone down by turning something off than the life of the person that is working on whatever it may be, or even the fact you may turn the wrong thing off in the process and what may go down.

Few years back I was doing some work in an office building. One side of the space, not really a separate occupancy per how the building was constructed or wired, was rented out to a guy that did investment type activities. I ended up turning a circuit off that interrupted his internet service, having no idea it would do that, just was on same circuit as the one I plugged my tracer into in the owner's office area.

He about had a fit and told me how much money that potentially could have cost him. I personally knew the guy, knew he was a big jerk and mostly ignored him, but did apologize at least once. So wanted to say "then if you were smart you probably should have battery backup on your systems as well as a secondary internet connection in case the first fails if there is so much at stake".