ground rod

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jimwalker

Senior Member
Location
TAMPA FLORIDA
Re: ground rod

Is possible we are lower than 25 ohms.2 ground rods,copper water pipes under slab,rebar footer,swiming pool,steel well casing (100 ft 4 inch),gas line.Now granted few of us have all that,but even part of that list helps.Any help is better than none.Just might give us some warning before every thing fries
 

flightline

Senior Member
Re: ground rod

As a refresher or for those who don't know, Chicago revamped their own electrical code, which is now, closely based upon the NEC; but that more closely addresses the needs associated with the big city. WITHOUT rehashing our particular methods of installation, we are one of those pipe and wire towns that to many of you out there, may seem kinda' odd. In fact, most of the "collar" counties around ours follow our lead in that respect. But please, there have been other discussions about that, and I don't want to drift off, down that lane. As Hurk has stated, up until the implementation of this new code, there were no requirements for the addition of a ground rod, where city water service was present. To Pierre, the 2-ground rod thing is not prevalent here. Perhaps it's due to all of the metal water service installed here for eons. Chicago may be arcane in the way we do things, but everything requires a permit. Even with the changes made to the inspection departments, everything requires a permit [revenue]. Even adding a ground rod. Not to sound condescending at all, this is the big city, and permits & fines are a prime source of revenue. And wouldn't you know it; there seems to be a perpetual budget shortfall. If you add an outlet to a circuit, it requires a permit. There are permit fees for phone & tv when building a home too. It all seems to drift back to revenue.

Scott is correct in most of his assertions though; perhaps he is skewed toward the way things work in Chicago, and because he as had to deal with the "system" . And to nift, as an inspector, I would write violations of NEC 250-64(e) where the grounding electrode conductor wasn't bonded to it's enclosure,[raceway], at both ends [Chicago must be metal]. It wasn't that long ago, while taking a class taught by the former cheif electrical inspector of Chicago, he explained that not doing so would create a choke about this conductor; so how could you just add a ground rod, and not the bushings and the like to comply? I don't know if Scott was advocating upgrading the entire residences' electrical system, or if he was speaking to the grounding electrode system only. I'm curious too, as to why you'd be installing a ground rod only? There's also nothing lost on being the last guy in there and the liability associated thereto. These can be cans of worms with respect to liability in this litigious world.

With respect to costs, we have a large base of union contractors, [again, not a discussion I want to start], but as such, our hourly rates seem to be larger than many that attend this board.

Also of concern is the fact that many of the Chicago "bungalows" were built fairly close to each other based upon what we know as a neighborhood today. Many of the areas adjacent to the meter sockets are in areas where ther are walkways. In the older homes, driving a ground rod adjacent to the meter socket can be precarious, having to dodge the footing of the foundation, and the underground downspout drains.
 

roger

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Fl
Occupation
Retired Electrician
Re: ground rod

Jim, 25 ohms on a ground rod at our low voltage won't help, nor will it give you any warning. All it will do in the case of a lost service neutral, is impose a dangerous voltage gradient immediate to the rod location. The series circuit damage will still occur.

The rod is for lightning, and surge bracing.

Roger

[ January 27, 2004, 05:57 PM: Message edited by: roger ]
 

jimwalker

Senior Member
Location
TAMPA FLORIDA
Re: ground rod

Roger i do see where your going.If that drop did lose neutral then the ground around my ground rod has a potential(not good).That being said are we maybe in more danger with it than without ?
 

noxx

Senior Member
Re: ground rod

Flight pretty much hit my concern on the head. If a structure has no rod, and you add a rod, you are altering the grounding system. Once you alter it, you are required to bring it into compliance. To do otherwise is just asking to get sued.

Will it cost more? sure. Is it more than the customer wants to do, or pay for? probably. However, if it's required, it's required, and that's all there is about it.
 

flightline

Senior Member
Re: ground rod

noxx,

All the more reason so many of us are curious as to why and/or whom are requiring the ground rods? And as an aspect of good engineering, when, as hurk had said, "we have added many to existing services for the phone company and home owners" shouldn't a point be made of tying the two ground "systems" together so as to keep voltages impressed upon them "even" for lack of a better word? ....Really would like to know why they are being added now.
 

hurk27

Senior Member
Re: ground rod

flightline
I guess I should of clarified it as we were called by Verizon because they had been told that there grounding on certin homes was not in compliance with the NEC as there drop was to the far side of the house and the 3' ground rod they were installing was not bonded to the service GE as there was none ever installed in "1973". so we installed the service EG and in most cases they relocated there drop closer to the service to allow a shorter bond to be made to the service EG. This EG was connected to the service panel grounding/neutral bar. There was a water pipe EG already connected and it met code.
 

flightline

Senior Member
Re: ground rod

Hurk,

It wasn't you that I was asking the "why" about. You always seem to state things very clearly...No, what I should have said was why was departie , the person from Chicago that started this thread, being asked to do this and by whom. And as I would have believed, it sounds like the additional ground rods you installed were done properly.

[ January 29, 2004, 11:20 AM: Message edited by: flightline ]
 

charlie b

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Lockport, IL
Occupation
Retired Electrical Engineer
Re: ground rod

Originally posted by pierre:For systems with a metallic cold waterpipe, what is the 'real' purpose of the groundrod? And then adding a second one at 6 feet apart - is that really effective or a complete waste of time and money?
Pierre. They are not bad questions. My answer comes from the fact that I started my career working with nuclear power. In that industry, ?redundancy? and ?diversity? were a part of one?s daily life. In the language of that industry, ?redundancy? means two or more of the same type of protection, and ?diversity? means two or more different types of protection. Both concepts have to do with making sure that protection remains effective, even if one protective device fails.

Quite often, when decisions had to be made, the questions that were asked included the following:
</font>
  • <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">(1) What?s the worst that can happen?
    (2) How bad would that event be?
    (3) What can be done to reduce the chance of it happening?
    (4) What can be done to reduce the consequences, presuming that (against all odds) it does happen?</font>
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">In many cases, when the ?worst that can happen? was a very bad thing, it turned out that a small expenditure could dramatically reduced the probability (or the consequences) of the event.

In our profession, the worst that can happen is that someone could be killed. That?s a very bad thing. If we can reduce the probability of that happening by spending a little extra money, I would call it a worthwhile expense. In our language, a second ground rod would constitute ?redundancy,? and combining a rod with a water pipe would constitute ?diversity.?

Admittedly, I have neither fact nor statistic to demonstrate that anyone has ever been saved by the existence of a second ground rod. Nor can I cite a news article that said that this person died when the house was struck by lightning, and the poor creature might still be alive today if there had been a second ground rod. But I don?t have to think any further than that for a small extra cost, the probability of a bad event can become smaller.
 

noxx

Senior Member
Re: ground rod

Good link Jim, I personally always appreciate the informative net resources that pop up around here, thanks. :)
 

charlie tuna

Senior Member
Location
Florida
Re: ground rod

while attending one of mike holt's "grounding and bonding" classes he came up with this video recorded at his new home in orlando, florida concerning "ground rods".. being taught and practicing the theory of grounding since 1958 - i was shocked to find out "hay, this ground rod is basically usless"! mike drives a 10' ground rod and energizes it from a 15 amp circuit and it doesn't trip the breaker? then adds another 10' rod to the first rod and drives it down to a depth of twenty feet and still doesn't trip the breaker! i'm sitting there telling myself "i know this rod is now at least ten feet into the water table"? the film goes on till they have 40 feet of ground rod installed, end to end, and the current draw from the 15 amp circuit is around 13.5 amps! the theory that the code allows you to have one ground rod if you can determine the resistance to ground is 25 ohms or less--if not two rods must be driven - who's to say that after driving the second ground rod the resistance in some areas might be a thousand ohms? many times over the years i have driven isolated ground rods for equipment and systems knowing that six or seven feet of that rod was underwater and "it's definetly grounded"! then comes the practice of driving a ground rod at each light pole say in a parking lot? "why" we discussed? best reason we came up with was "we gotta keep this guy busy making these ground rods". i have many times seen lightning damage on parking lot systems with ground rods - it may lessen the damage - but it doesn't protect it from damage. i have seen an instance where the power company's subcontractor energized the neutral to four existing homes - none of the grounding electrode conductors going to the ground rods were damaged, but the wire bonded to the home's water pipe instantaniously lost it's insulation - turned it to liquid and it was like "green wax" on the floor. i learn something everday!
 

roger

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Fl
Occupation
Retired Electrician
Re: ground rod

Charlie, your post is the fact of the matter.

As seen earlier in this thread, there are some who think a standard ground rod or two will help in completing a circuit or even be a performing part of OCP operation.

Roger
 

pierre

Senior Member
Re: ground rod

Charlie
Thanks for that response, as I think it is important that some understand that some people believe how important diversity and redundancy is for grounding and bonding.

There are still many in our industry who believe that the GEC will clear a ground fault condition. I am not sure other than beating it to death how to convince them otherwise.

My point of adding a second ground rod at 6 feet as per code is detailed in the 3rd illustration in the site that Jim posted. It is useless at that distance, so why install it. That is not redundancy, it is not very smart. If we install a second groundrod, lets do it so it serves a purpose other than keeping the groundrod companies in business.

As in Charlie Tuna's post, why do we ground lighting poles that have an equipment ground conductor installed with the phase conductors?

I have read the engineering report that was performed on these poles with and without groundrods, and I believe that report is very biased.

Pierre
 

don_resqcapt19

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Illinois
Occupation
retired electrician
Re: ground rod

Pierre,
My point of adding a second ground rod at 6 feet as per code is detailed in the 3rd illustration in the site that Jim posted. It is useless at that distance, so why install it.
Even at a seperation of 6' the second ground rod is not "useless". While the most effective installation of a second rod is at a seperation of twice the rod length, a second rod at 6' will still reduce the grounding electrode system resistance. According to a chart in the 6th edition of the Soares book (note that have 4 other editions of this book and they don't have this chart) if you set a second 10' rod 20' away from the first one you will get a ground resistance of about 50% of the single rod value. If the spacing is 10' the resistance of the 2 rods will be about 60% of the single rod resistance. When the seperation is reduded to 5' the resistance will be about 70% of the single rod.
Don
 

brian john

Senior Member
Location
Leesburg, VA
Re: ground rod

I have been involved in numerous projects (treading carefully here) where I have seen inspectors beat up contractors for an extra rod, or why don't you use a Ufer, or the rods aren't quite 6 feet, ect when in side the bonding and equipment grounding left a lot to be desired.

The importance in grounding basic office buildings, hotels, homes, stores...... is in adequate NEC mandated, properly installed grounding as part of the service and distribution system.

Just My opinion
 

hurk27

Senior Member
Re: ground rod

By Pierre
There are still many in our industry who believe that the GEC will clear a ground fault condition. I am not sure other than beating it to death how to convince them otherwise.
This kind of myth is still being told even the link that jim gave us has this very statment in one of the links "
What Does a Good Ground do?
"
I couldn't beleve it myself that they would say this.


What is a ground and what does it do?

The NEC, National Electrical Code defines a ground as: "a conducting connection, whether intentional or accidental between an electrical circuit or equipment and the earth, or to some conducting body that serves in place of the earth." When talking about grounding it is actually two different subjects, earth grounding and equipment grounding. Earth grounding is an intentional connection from a circuit conductor usually the neutral to a ground electrode placed in the earth. Equipment grounding is to ensure that operating equipment within a structure is properly grounded. These two grounding systems are required to be kept separate except for a connection between the two systems to prevent differences in potential from a possible flashover from a lightning strike. The purpose of a ground besides the protection of people plants and equipment is to provide a safe path for the dissipation of Fault Currents , Lightning Strikes, Static Discharges, EMI and RFI signals and Interference.
This is WHY! this myth keeps going.
 

scott thompson

Senior Member
Re: ground rod

Ahhh, the Grounding Electrode System's usefulness topic has arrised once again! It's last mega hot file discussion here at MHE was (I think) in the "Old Forum" just before Y2K rollover.

I'll make a quick and dirty description for the effectiveness of a local GES at a 1 Family Dwelling - using any type(s) of Electrodes (C.W. pipe w/ >10' direct buried and metallic, Driven Rod(s) as supplimental or sole GES, Encased Electrodes - AKA "Ufer", or whatever else can be made).

Here's the "Geek-Dom" info:
Electrical Power is derived from a common use Power Transformer, which has a Medium Voltage Primary feeder (4KV to 34.5KV). 1? Isolated Transformer with 2 to 5 %Z range, 25 to 37.5 KVA Apparent Power rating, center tapped Secondary winding, oil filled, Silicon Steel laminated core.
120/240VAC 1? 3Wire Grounded AC system.

<end of Geek'o info string>

Surge supression and first point of contact for grounded secondary circuit is via #8 conductor, attached to side of wood pole; and it extends into dirt (earth) with the pole. Connection to center tapped terminal + bond to metallic Transformer enclosure.

At this location, the Center tapped point of the Secondary winding, along with the now "Grounded Conductor" are at close to zero potential to the "Grounding Plane" surrounding the Utility pole. This also results in each of the Ungrounded Conductors having a potential of 120V maximum to the local Ground Plane.

Simple so far?, let's toss some variables in.

100' from this point, the potential between the Grounded Center Tap Conductor (AKA "Neutral") to the grounded plane will not be zero - but more like 10 or 15 volts. Also, the ungrounded conductors have a changed potential to the grounding plane.
Why? Because the distance has introduced an Impedance within the soil, and now you have the classic "Higher Voltages Across The Higher Impedances" deal, for Series Circuits.

Using this data, what happens if the Secondary is not grounded at all?

Via Reactive Coupling, there will be a potential difference (and a corresponding path for current to flow) between the Primary and Secondary winding circuits.
Now each of the Secondary circuit conductors have a Series additive connection to the Primary feeders - and for whatever the level of Impedance is, there will be a resulting Voltage - at a level required to push a corresponding level of current through this Reactively Coupled circuit.
If the Impedance is relatively low, so will be the potential difference between two points (the Voltage). If Z is very high, the voltage will also be high.
At a point, the secondary circuit may easilly have potentials to earth ground as high as 15,000 VAC.

So how does this relate to a GES at a house?

Think of each house's "Ground Plane"! We are re-establishing the "Zero Point Of Potential" for the Grounded Conductor, and as an extra added bonus, the Ungrounded Conductors will be "Set" back to 120VAC potential to the local grounding plane.

In other words, the AC system has become bonded to a new local "Ground" at the house, because we have bonded the Grounded Center Tapped Conductor to the Earth surrounding the house.
To keep the Bonded metallic enclosures + EGCs to the same level (zero, or close to zero volts to ground) - along with establishing a solid low Z connection to the AC system, the fault clearing bonding conductors + main bonding jumper for enclosures are also connected to the system's Grounded Center Tapped Conductor at the same location of the local ground plane's connection - the GEC for the GES.

The GES does not need to be a current carrying structure - nor does it require a very low Impedance (Z) to the Power Transformer's Grounding Plane (it should not have low Z, because this will create parallel paths for large current levels to flow!). It also should not be a very high Impedance, which will result in high potentials. A happy medium needs to be found.

With this local grounding plane established, the chances of high potentials being created across a semi-high/semi-low Impedance (a person) are nullified.

As with the Service feeders 100' from the pole and Xformer, when circuit length increases the distance from the Service point + local GES bonding of the AC system, the potentials to ground will also increase. This occurs on all related conductors - Grounded, Ungrounded and Grounding.

To wrap it up, the Grounding Electrode System (GES) does not assist in conduction of fault currents for L-G fault situations. This is done via the Bonded Metallic Enclosures + Raceways, and supplimented with the Equipment Grounding Conductors (EGC). These items carry Ground Fault currents, to the point in the local system where the AC system is physically bonded (connected) to them. This is, of course, the point where the "Noodle" is connected to both the grounded enclosures and EGCs, plus the GES - via the Grounding Electrode Conductor (GEC).
What the GES does do during an L-G fault is keep the potential to ground on all items bonded to it, as low as possible.

During a Line-to-Ground (L-G) fault, there will be a very low level of current flowing through the earth back to the Transformer. Lucky to see anything as high as 5 amps at the time of L-G fault.
Remember one simple thing here: there are many paths for ground currrents to flow back to the Transformer besides the earth its self. The next-door neighbor's house has the same bonding of the AC system to it's GES, so currents flow through their stuff, and the earth ground.

(BTW: no significally large current flows in the grounded circuitry or structures when a Line-to-Line fault occurs. Only circuit charging and Reactive coupled stuff will be 'a-flow'in on grounded parts!).

As mentioned about driving rods and connecting them to a 15 amp 120VAC circuit, without an overcurrent resulting (trip the breaker), this is very true - but is also very basic.
Drive a single 10' rod in semi damp, low Acidic, sandy soil. Drive it >30' from any buried metallic things which are bonded to the AC system (directly or indirectly), then connect the 15 amp circuit to it.
Lucky to get 3 amps flowing.

Do the same in very damp, medium Acidic, unsandy soil - still >30' from buried treasures ;) .
Now you might be drawing 8 amps!

Drive the rod about 5' from the Cold Water line coming from the street (which is bonded to the AC system in some way), with the more conductive soil types described in the "8 amp" scenario above. Chances are that breaker is gonna trip - and trip fast!

OK, now it's Audience Participation time! ;)

Does this shed light on the whole GES thingee?

Let me know whazzup.

Send all flames to:

Mr. Spam.
1122 Green-Eggs and Ham Drive.
Sam I Am, CA. 90u812

They will read them on a boat; they will feed them to a Goat.

<end sillyness>

Scott35
 

Ed MacLaren

Senior Member
Re: ground rod

If I was the "victim" in this scenario, I would hope that the required grounding electrodes did not have a low impedance to ground, and I would be wishing that there was one installed at point X.

This illustrates the importance of installing the grounding electrode at a sub-service, and why it should be connected to the enclosures.

Ed

Safety3.gif
 

don_resqcapt19

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Illinois
Occupation
retired electrician
Re: ground rod

Scott,
What the GES does do during an L-G fault is keep the potential to ground on all items bonded to it, as low as possible.
This low potential to earth under system fault conditions only exists within a foot or so of the grounding electrode. Once you get more than this distance away from the grounding electrode, you will have a voltage between the earth and all metallic objects connected to the electrical grounding/bonding system. This voltage to earth will be equal to the voltage drop on the grounded conductor between the main bonding jumper and XO at the utility transformer. Under heavy fault conditions this voltage that appear on all bonded objects can be hazardous. This voltage will only exist until the fault is cleared, but that time frame could be long enough to cause injury or death.
Drive the rod about 5' from the Cold Water line coming from the street (which is bonded to the AC system in some way), with the more conductive soil types described in the "8 amp" scenario above. Chances are that breaker is gonna trip - and trip fast!
Even with a separation of only 5' from the water pipe, I doubt that the current flow through the earth will be high enough to open the OCPD quickly. Most of the resistance of the grounding electrode is within the first foot or two of the grounding electrode.
Don
 
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