Grounded subpanel

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If this is representative of the rest of the 24 story building, that is very serious.
 
Dengineer said:
Still fresh to the field. I am new to the field work and sometimes get surprised by what I see. Huge difference between being behind a computer as a designer and then getting to see what's actually installed on the field, especially when its a messy install. I enjoy throwing question out and hearing other peoples opinions/solutions.
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No one starts out with 25 years experience so keep the questions coming. We're here to help.
 
Who did the inspections? Obviously none, or the inspector should have some reeducation.
If I was there this hole building red tagged until fully inspected and fixed.
If it is this bad in an accessible view what was hidden?
 
Dengineer said:
There is no conduit running from the junction box entering the tenant space to the sub-panel. The main feeders are open to air and there is not grounding conductor or grounding bar, just a neutral.
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When you say 'the main feeders are open to air' do you mean that you have 3 separate wires, not enclosed in a conduit, outer plastic sheath, cable tray, or other 'cover'?

-Jon
 
rambojoe said:
More importantly, what kind of electrical engineer asks such elementry questions...
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That was unkind of you, and not in keeping with the way forum members are supposed to treat each other. Dengineer gave a good and fair response. But that should not have been necessary.

I got my two EE degrees a long time ago. Not one course included any mention of wiring a panel, nor did any course include any mention of the NEC. I doubt that that has changed. Most of us learn on the job, or for the fortunate ones, from forum discussions like this one.

We each have our own roles in the electrical industry. We are all professionals, and we need to treat each other as professionals.
 
charlie b said:
That was unkind of you, and not in keeping with the way forum members are supposed to treat each other. Dengineer gave a good and fair response. But that should not have been necessary.

I got my two EE degrees a long time ago. Not one course included any mention of wiring a panel, nor did any course include any mention of the NEC. I doubt that that has changed. Most of us learn on the job, or for the fortunate ones, from forum discussions like this one.

We each have our own roles in the electrical industry. We are all professionals, and we need to treat each other as professionals.
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It is not unkind. Since you are supporting the coddling of poor workmanship i will not bother explaining myself to the likes of you. Since you are not against about the 19 things that are wrong i will not bother pointing them out to you since it doesnt bother you...
If you knew this engineer then "designer" actually did the work and got busted, would you feel the same way? How does mr holt feel? How many engineers does mike know that goes to a job and takes a random picture of a panel then asks first year apprentice questions?
How many apartments have you seen with 6 g.l. circuits and no provisions for cooking?
Look at the pic and add it up for me.
Was it designed, engineered or wired poorly?
You tell me. I am a proud pro. I have no time for hacks or emotional moderators.
 
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rambojoe said:
It is not unkind. Since you are supporting the coddling of poor workmanship i will not bother explaining myself to the likes of you. Since you are not against about the 19 things that are wrong i will not bother pointing them out to you since it doesnt bother you...
If you knew this engineer then "designer" actually did the work and got busted, would you feel the same way? How does mr holt feel? How many engineers does mike know that goes to a job and takes a random picture of a panel then asks first year apprentice questions?
How many apartments have you seen with 6 g.l. circuits and no provisions for cooking?
Look at the pic and add it up for me.
Was it designed, engineered or wired poorly?
You tell me. I am a proud pro. I have no time for hacks or emotional moderators.
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Charlie is correct it was unkind. Not everyone with an engineering degree has years of field experience which is one of the reasons why this forum exists. Dengineer stated that he was "still fresh to the field" and deserves to be treated better.
 
infinity said:
Charlie is correct it was unkind. Not everyone with an engineering degree has years of field experience which is one of the reasons why this forum exists. Dengineer stated that he was "still fresh to the field" and deserves to be treated better.
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Well... Makes no sense fussing about me then.
I made my points. It would be unkind but i just have this weird knack after all these years. One things for sure, it isnt a apartment. Or legal.
Wheres the shut off? On another floor? These things make fire, not contact hazards.
Not to mention injures wiremen new to the field.
 
I do not believe that @Dengineer wired this panel.

My understanding is that they are an inexperienced engineer looking at something that the think is wrong, and are asking questions to improve their understanding about how wrong it is.

Since they have no training or experience in the NEC or practical building wiring, I applaud their seeking to learn.

On the other hand, if they went outside of their training and installed this abomination, then they deserve both scorn and and a lawsuit.

Jon
 
rambojoe said:
Since you are supporting the coddling of poor workmanship i will not bother explaining myself to the likes of you.
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I made no comment on the workmanship. I objected to your talking down to another forum member because they don't know the answer to the question that they took the time to post here. We don't treat each other that way on this forum. I have met with Mike Holt several times, and I can assure you that that is his desire.
 
charlie b said:
I made no comment on the workmanship. I objected to your talking down to another forum member because they don't know the answer to the question that they took the time to post here. We don't treat each other that way on this forum. I have met with Mike Holt several times, and I can assure you that that is his desire.
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Agreed. One of the basic tenets of this forum is that we communicate with each other in a civil and professional manner, and we keep our discussions about the issues rather than personalities. Condescending phrases such as "the likes of you" have no place here, IMO.
 
@rambojoe I feel like there was a misunderstanding here.

As @winnie stated and is correct, I did not wire this panel nor did I design the blueprints for this apartment. I am completely unrelated to the work that was done.

I walked into this situation on the field, which prompted a few questions and I thought it would be interesting to hear other peoples opinions.

Most engineers see a blueprint in the office and find a clean code compliant install on the field, but sooner or later you walk into a situation like this that teaches you a lot. It's something I can reference for future.

This post may have gone off the rails, but I did learn a lot from it, even small things like what are "red devils". I am slightly better than I was yesterday, so its a win.

Appreciate all the feedback!
 
Dengineer said:
I am an electrical engineer and would like some help understanding the grounding in the image below.
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I believe that you, or rather the PE under whose supervision you work, have an ethical obligation to formally report this situation to the owner or manager of the building. I would do it in writing, and send it by registered mail with proof of delivery sent back to you.

You came across something dangerous, whether or not it was part of the task you were being paid to do. You can't disregard the possibility that this situation can result in the injury or death of a tenant in this building. Put the duty of dealing with the issue into the hands of the owner or manager.

Feel free to PM me, if you want to discuss further.
 
charlie b said:
I believe that you, or rather the PE under whose supervision you work, have an ethical obligation to formally report this situation to the owner or manager of the building. I would do it in writing, and send it by registered mail with proof of delivery sent back to you.

You came across something dangerous, whether or not it was part of the task you were being paid to do. You can't disregard the possibility that this situation can result in the injury or death of a tenant in this building. Put the duty of dealing with the issue into the hands of the owner or manager.

Feel free to PM me, if you want to discuss further.
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As a PE I am required to report anything I see that presents a danger to the public whether it is in the scope of work I am hired to do or not.
 
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