Grounding Electrode Conductor Table 250.66

[JohnJ0906]

appology

appology

The POCO in the Washington, DC area requires you to purchase the meter socket from them. Nice racket, huh?

Sorry, I gave you all some bum info. We do not PURCHASE the meter socket, we pick it up from them and mount it. I was under the impression that we had to pay. (as much as my boss complains, you would think he WAS paying, and out of his own pocket!)

 

[dnem]

Now come on.

I have seen a lot of debates around here but I have never seen this one yet.

That lug is intended to connect a conductor...peroid.

If it is used at all and for what purpose is up to the installer.

Check the manufacturers specs. . They list the lug as a bonding lug in every spec I've seen so far. . It's also come up in IAEI meetings that other inspectors are seeing the same spec too. . One inspector uses that as his reason for not allowing it to be used as an electrode connection.

David

 

[guschash]

250.24(A)(1) -Service drop,Meter can, Service disconnect. In Mike Holt's Grounging versus Bonding p.33

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Our local utility requires that the GEC from the ground rods be connected in the meter can. The other GECs, if any, are connected in the service disconnect. They also don't permit the use of a concrete encased electrode in place of the ground rods.
Don

 

[iwire]

Check the manufacturers specs. . They list the lug as a bonding lug in every spec I've seen so far. .

And using this lug to connect a grounding electrode system is not bonding the GES to the grounded conductor?

You should take a look at the Article 100 definition of Bonding.

 

[stickboy1375]

Does this requirement exist in your area.

Meter socket can not be used as a grounding point. The grounding electrode conductor shall not be run through the meter socket and the grounding electrode conductor connection shall not be made within the meter provision.

That requirement came from the electrical service requirements for the United Illuminating Company of Connecticut. The on-line handbook.

It just seems that the meter socket should be the place to make that connection. Every socket has a lug attached to the grounded bus to make the connection.

If not let me drag the #6 wire through the socket and I will land it on the EGC bus. But it seems to me that is also prohibited to.

Thanks,
Fran

you know as well as me (being from connecticut) that if they lock that meter you don't have access to it... that being said is enough...

 

[roger]

you know as well as me (being from connecticut) that if they lock that meter you don't have access to it... that being said is enough...

Stickboy, I know you are going by what your required to do, but why are the other connections we make in the "meter can" not an issue then?

I can get into locked "meter cans" easier than I can get into some locked electrical rooms where the main is located.

David, to go along with Iwires post, most meter cans say "Bonded Neutral", which, if you look at the way they are manufactured the neutral bar is not isolated from the enclosure, and with that being said, notice in this Square D link that a "Ground" AWG range is given for the lug in question.


IMO, the meter can is the most logical place for the GEC connection, why do we want a surge or lightning event to go into a building to get to it?


Roger

 

[stickboy1375]

Are you saying that you run the conductor without any form of protection? Straight into the ground? I see it that way all the time, but I don't like it one bit. Seems like a 250.64(B) violation if anyone mows grass.

# 6cu or larger does not require protection

 

[stickboy1375]

Stickboy, I know you are going by what your required to do, but why are the other connections we make in the "meter can" not an issue then?

I can get into locked "meter cans" easier than I can get into some locked electrical rooms where the main is located.

David, to go along with Iwires post, most meter cans say "Bonded Neutral", which, if you look at the way they are manufactured the neutral bar is not isolated from the enclosure, and with that being said, notice in this Square D link that a "Ground" AWG range is given for the lug in question.


IMO, the meter can is the most logical place for the GEC connection, why do we want a surge or lightning event to go into a building to get to it?



I can't answer that... but I can answer this... I have NEVER had to alter a ground connection in a panel, NOR respond to a lightning strike call, so neither is really that important for me...

At least if I was getting calls of a problem of the ground rods being installed in the panel instead of the meter I'd be able to agree with you guys... it's like hearing someone tell a story of how lucky they were to have a emergency oil/gas switch!

 

[roger]

I can't answer that... but I can answer this... I have NEVER had to alter a ground connection,

Where is altering anything part of the thread?

NOR respond to a lightning strike call, so neither is really that important for me...

Responding to a lightning strike call is not the point, the point is that the major function of a GE and GEC is for what help it can give for preventing damage from a surge or lightning event, so why would you want it to travel inside a structure to get to this diversion path or for any reason

Roger

 

[stickboy1375]

Where is altering anything part of the thread?


Responding to a lightning strike call is not the point, the point is that the major function of a GE and GEC is for what help it can give for preventing damage from a surge or lightning event, so why would you want it to travel inside a structure to get to this diversion path or for any reason

Roger

IF it was such a problem don't you think it would have been addressed and resolved in the NEC? Or are you the only one to see this as a problem... ? And who said the ground rods have to be outside? so whats the point? Or am I missing something? Besides that its CODE, ART 250.68 (A) SHALL BE ACCESSIBLE, SOOOOO if my POCO locks the meter guess what i'm in violation correct?

 

[roger]

Stickboy, it is addressed in the NEC.

250.4 General Requirements for Grounding and Bonding
The following general requirements identify what grounding and bonding of electrical systems are required to accomplish. The prescriptive methods contained in Article 250 shall be followed to comply with the performance requirements of this section.

(A) Grounded Systems

(1) Electrical System Grounding Electrical systems that are grounded shall be connected to earth in a manner that will limit the voltage imposed by lightning, line surges, or unintentional contact with higher-voltage lines and that will stabilize the voltage to earth during normal operation.

Nobody said anything about ground rods having to be outside, but my question to you (since my questions to you seem to be a sore spot) is, why would you want to invite a surge or lightning strike into a structure? (in your own words please)

Why do you want to go with what some inspector requires without looking further into the reason or at least questioning the reason?


BTW, For your information, you can read your Connecticut amendments to the NEC Here starting on page 112 and I don't see a prohibition to making the connection in the Meter enclosure nor do I see a prohibition to 4 wire feeders to an outbuilding.

Roger

 

[stickboy1375]

Stickboy, it is addressed in the NEC.



Nobody said anything about ground rods having to be outside, but my question to you (since my questions to you seem to be a sore spot) is, why would you want to invite a surge or lightning strike into a structure? (in your own words please)

Why do you want to go with what some inspector requires without looking further into the reason or at least questioning the reason?


BTW, For your information, you can read your Connecticut amendments to the NEC Here starting on page 112 and I don't see a prohibition to making the connection in the Meter enclosure nor do I see a prohibition to 4 wire feeders to an outbuilding.

Roger

I am wiring to code, POCO will not allow me to bond ground rod to meter. (Connecticut Light & Power) (if you wanna can them as well)If the POCO can lock the meter than that would make it NON - ACCESSIBLE, a code violation according to ART 250.68 (A) that is has to be accessibile, so I see no need to go any futher... I thought this was a CODE forum not a OPINION forum... And I don't EVER remember saying " this is the right way to do the job" People are requesting CODE answers not what some think are RIGHT or WRONG...

You can call Bob Nuzzi the CT Electrical Inspector and ask him yourself why he wants 3 wires to a remote Panelboard. I already looked up the amendments myself... thankfully all the jobs i've done like that are in under my boss's license #...

 

[roger]

I I thought this was a CODE forum not a OPINION forum...

Yep, and I don't see a lock as being a restriction for Accessible (as applied to wiring methods) in the NEC (CODE) definition.

How would you handle a NEMA 3R Main Breaker Panel Board with the cover locked?

Would you cut the lock at the risk of the owner suing you?

Apply the same to a meter can;

Would you cut the lock at the risk of the POCO suing you?

What's the difference between the two?

Why would a privately owned lock be different than the POCO's?

The bottom line is neither lock makes the connection inaccessible.

Roger

 

[allenwayne]

Here we don`t have many meter ring locks just meter seals.A pair of dikes remove them but if we cut them for any reason we better call for a reseal or they will charge us with theft of service.

 

[dnem]

And using this lug to connect a grounding electrode system is not bonding the GES to the grounded conductor?

You should take a look at the Article 100 definition of Bonding.

The NEC has already bastardized the word "grounding" so that it has no real meaning as a word to describe any function. . Now we're talking about a "mission creep" for the word "bonding".

Another example in Article 100 definitions is "grounded", defined as connected to earth or to some conducting body that serves in place of earth. . That's a definition that best decribes the electrode ground but the term "grounded" isn't supposed to be used for the electrode system. . Grounded conductor is the neutral [95% of the time]. . The grounded conductor is never the electrode ground.

1) There's the wire category "ungrounded"
2) There's the wire category "grounded"
3) There's the wire category "electrode grounding"
4) There's the wire category "equipment grounding"

1) "ungrounded" is the "hot" or "phase'
2) "grounded" is usually the neutral
3) "electrode grounding" is "earthing" for lightning and reference to earth
4) "equipment grounding" is "bonding" for fault current path to operate OCPD

I think it's a mistake to mix the word "bonding" with "electrode grounding" based on certain words in the definition. . You should always be careful when intermixing the 4 categories of conductors. . Definitions are very useful for many issues in the code. . But in defining the categories of conductors they are a total failure. . There is no way you can understand differences in wire functioning based on NEC definitions. . It's a muddled mess. . NEC Article 100 wire category definitions should only be used to reference labeling within the code. . They don't retain any usefulness to describe function.

David

 

[hillbilly]

# 6cu or larger does not require protection

A exposed #6 GEC can never be "free from exposure to physical damage" (250.64(B) if it's mounted on the outside of a building.
A exposed #4 (or larger) GEC is sometimes (not always) "exposed to physical damage".
I know...it's a judgement call...so in my judgement ....a #6 requires protection. Sometimes a #4 too.
steve

 

[roger]

Steve, there is no protection from my riding mower/tiller.

Roger

 

[iwire]

The NEC has already bastardized the word "grounding" so that it has no real meaning as a word to describe any function. . Now we're talking about a "mission creep" for the word "bonding".

I don't think so.

Bonding is many things as the definition shows, it is not limited to connecting raceway to a meter socket with a conductor.

When you put conductor from a receptacle to a box you are bonding.

When you attach a GEC to a grounded conductor you are bonding.

I think it's a mistake to mix the word "bonding" with "electrode grounding" based on certain words in the definition. .

Yeah your right we should ignore the NEC definition as a matter of fact Article 100 should be removed all together as it only serves to confuse.

 

[stickboy1375]

Yep, and I don't see a lock as being a restriction for Accessible (as applied to wiring methods) in the NEC (CODE) definition.

How would you handle a NEMA 3R Main Breaker Panel Board with the cover locked?

Would you cut the lock at the risk of the owner suing you?

Apply the same to a meter can;

Would you cut the lock at the risk of the POCO suing you?

What's the difference between the two?

Why would a privately owned lock be different than the POCO's?

The bottom line is neither lock makes the connection inaccessible.

Roger

I love the way you think! You always make me think twice as hard. BUT... read the definition of accessible and you will agree with me..! yes I can break into any lock but thats not what we are talking about...