Grounding Electrode System Question

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Doc13067 said:
I know it is metal and runs for more than 10 feet underground but Im unsure if there are any other factors needed to make it qualify so I’m putting in 2 ground rods to be sure. Would my scenario 1 only be ok if the pipe does not qualify?
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It's as Dave said, it qualifies as a GE and the wording of 250.52(A)(1) covers it. You would need to supplement it with another GE and could be any type in 250.52. If there are more than two you must use all of them, you don't get to choose which ones you want to use.

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Roger
 
roger said:
It's as Dave said, it qualifies as a GE and the wording of 250.52(A)(1) covers it. You would need to supplement it with another GE and could be any type in 250.52. If there are more than two you must use all of them, you don't get to choose which ones you want to use.

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Roger
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In this case the rod would be entirely optional. Correct? It would not need to be added due to the presence of the other GEs.
 
Ok I’m clear now thank you very much. This whole concept seems like it violates Mike’s video where he says there should be one point where all of grounding occurs via 1 wire to the electrodes. This feels to me like the same as running two ground rods and one GEC to each rod from the panel. I’ll have to work through this in my mind. Appreciate all the help.
 
roger said:
It's as Dave said, it qualifies as a GE and the wording of 250.52(A)(1) covers it. You would need to supplement it with another GE and could be any type in 250.52. If there are more than two you must use all of them, you don't get to choose which ones you want to use.

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Roger
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Now a new question for this: Does the GEC need to be a continuous wire from main service bond at service equipment to each of the potential Grounding electrode, terminating at the last GE, no splices? In past been told that was needed. Only exception was a splice made by exothermic weld, or non removable compression splice.
 
Doc13067 said:
Ok I’m clear now thank you very much. This whole concept seems like it violates Mike’s video where he says there should be one point where all of grounding occurs via 1 wire to the electrodes. This feels to me like the same as running two ground rods and one GEC to each rod from the panel. I’ll have to work through this in my mind. Appreciate all the help.
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Fred B said:
Now a new question for this: Does the GEC need to be a continuous wire from main service bond at service equipment to each of the potential Grounding electrode, terminating at the last GE, no splices? In past been told that was needed. Only exception was a splice made by exothermic weld, or non removable compression splice.
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The single point is where it connects to the service neutral, what happens at the GE's has no affect on creating ground loops. There is ONE GEC and that is where the first (and largest) GE is hit, everything else can be attached using jumpers as shown in the illustration.

Roger
 
Fred B said:
Now a new question for this: Does the GEC need to be a continuous wire from main service bond at service equipment to each of the potential Grounding electrode, terminating at the last GE, no splices? In past been told that was needed. Only exception was a splice made by exothermic weld, or non removable compression splice.
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A GEC only has to be continuous from the point of connection to the 1st electrode.
 
I think there is a provision somewhere that allows you to use a single conductor as both an equipment grounding conductor and a way to bond two grounding electrodes together. I think the requirement is it has to be at least as large as the required size of either the equipment grounded conductor or the bonding conductor. But maybe I am dreaming.
 
Doc13067 said:
Ok I’m clear now thank you very much. This whole concept seems like it violates Mike’s video where he says there should be one point where all of grounding occurs via 1 wire to the electrodes. This feels to me like the same as running two ground rods and one GEC to each rod from the panel. I’ll have to work through this in my mind. Appreciate all the help.
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Mike's video where be talks about single point grounding/earthing is a little confusing because he leaves out a lot of details about what is involved in setting up that kind of system and it's not covered in the NEC. His main point is that driving supplemental ground rods at different pieces of equipment can cause more problems than it solves and is the main take away that is being communicated.
 
Agreed, it sent me on a journey where I was doing scenario 1 in my illustration earlier (having ”one point” where my GEC goes to my ground rods and then running another wire from the sub panel ground bus to the pipe because I thought I was bonding rather than connecting to a GE. After learning from you guys I think a good solution to keep with Mike’s single conductor and as seen in the illustration from the code book is connecting everything above to everything below and still including the pipe as a GEC (because it always qualifies where I work, and I won’t do this if it doesn’t) is to run my GEC and tap onto it with a split bolt and run that wire to the pipe, rather than having 2 separate wires (one for the rods and one for the pipe). I greatly appreciate all the knowledge on here it’s amazing how long you can do this and still learn and relearn over and over again.
 
ActionDave said:
That may be true but you would think that someone who spends so much time and energy quibbling over a two letter word in article 250 would be a little more clear about what he means when using words that don't appear anywhere in article 250.
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Well to be fair, it was starting to feel like I was on the defensive against a position that I would normally agree with, haha. That's why I walked away for a minute. Catching up on everything now.
 
ActionDave said:
You seem to be confusing grounding electrode with grounding electrode conductor.
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When you all say.... this is what I think (keeping in mind most of my experience is in Residential)....
"MUST be used as a grounding electrode" = = "e.g. Run continuous #4 from main panel to street side of the water meter/main (i.e. first 5 ft) on 200A"

Perhaps that is where the disconnect is on my end?
 
infinity said:
That says nothing about "street side of the water main", those words do not exist in the NEC. The requirement is that the connection be within 5' of where the pipe enters the building. If there is something that can interrupt the continuity between the connection and the entry point then a bonding jumper is required. Can we agree that the part in bold is your opinion not what it says in the NEC?
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Agreed.

That's just how I was taught to think about it, which does coincidentally fulfill the code requirement.
You would find that rhetoric to be common here, but to fair to you... a clear, explicit understanding of the NEC is important.

So thanks for making this clarification.
 
Subsequent question coming up as a result of this...

.... are there any conditions in which the metal underground water piping system could be considered an auxiliary electrode?

It seems circular. First 250.50 makes it seem like the metal underground water piping system is always an electrode and therefore must be bonded to all other electrodes. But then you get to 250.54 and it sounds like, as long as the system has at least ONE sufficient electrode connected to the service neutral, anything beyond that one could be considered "auxiliary."
 
Jerramundi said:
Subsequent question coming up as a result of this...

.... are there any conditions in which the metal underground water piping system could be considered an auxiliary electrode?

It seems circular. First 250.50 makes it seem like the metal underground water piping system is always an electrode and therefore must be bonded to all other electrodes. But then you get to 250.54 and it sounds like, as long as the system has at least ONE sufficient electrode connected to the service neutral, anything beyond that one could be considered "auxiliary."
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250.54 comes into play when you have some equipment that the manufacture wants an electrode connected directly to that piece of equipment and not to the building GES.
 
Jerramundi said:
When you all say.... this is what I think (keeping in mind most of my experience is in Residential)....
"MUST be used as a grounding electrode" = = "e.g. Run continuous #4 from main panel to street side of the water meter/main (i.e. first 5 ft) on 200A"

Perhaps that is where the disconnect is on my end?
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First 5 feet of pipe entering the building is the key words, that is considered to be an extension of the electrode into the building (but only what is buried in earth counts toward the minimum 10 feet in earth requirement). You can land bonding jumpers to other electrodes on this first 5 feet if you wish. Often it isn't practical but is an option.

The meter is just a point in that line that to us - is a place that potentially gets opened at times and needs bonding around it if metallic piping. Is somewhat common practice when running a GEC to hit the house side of meter and without cutting the conductor continue on around the meter and land on the supply side - presuming that connection is within 5 feet of entry. Often it is but I have occasionally seen meters well past 5 feet of entry into the structure.
 
Jerramundi said:
Hey all. Hope all is well. Been a minute since I've been on the forum, but alas, I require the collective expertise of this community once again.

A lack of proper grounding came up as part of a customer's home inspection.

The home inspection explicitly calls for "grounding the meter," probably because the inspector is simply used to seeing ground rods at the meter, as am I.
There is also NO GEC to the water main, but that didn't come up in the inspection report.

In this case, the GEC to the water main is EXTREMELY IMPRACTICABLE. Just want clarify that my understanding is correct, that technically, less any explicit requirements from the municipality, two 5/8" ground rods at the meter is sufficient with respect to the NEC.

Standard operating procedure (SOP) in concise verbiage tells me (1) GEC to Water Main, (2) 2 Ground Rods outside at the meter.
It's been SOP for pretty much my entire career.

I understand that if you use the water main, which has a historical basis and serves as a good electrode (if not the best one), it must be supplemented (per code), which is where we arrive at driving a ground rod at the meter, which then has to be further supplemented with a second rod... but that these are not the only approved methods.
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Does the meter have a main breaker? If so then inspector is right, but if not then he's not. The Primary GEC goes in the service disconnect enclosure. If a Supplementary GEC is needed then it can go in either the meter or panel.
 
Frank Licata said:
Does the meter have a main breaker? If so then inspector is right, but if not then he's not. The Primary GEC goes in the service disconnect enclosure. If a Supplementary GEC is needed then it can go in either the meter or panel.
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GEC's must land either at the service disconnecting means or any point ahead of it up to the service drop/lateral conductors.

It is aux electrodes for equipment that can connect to items downstream of service equipment per 250.54 for reasons like I mentioned a few posts ago. Note this aux electrode can not take the place of an equipment grounding conductor.
 
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