Grounding electrode

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iwire

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Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
M.D. that is no longer accurate.

As a matter of fact in Leo Martins code class he handed out a builten from the state of MA that had been sent to GCs saying they better higher ECs before pouring the footings of new buildings or they may be breaking up the footings so that the EC can meet the new code.
 

M. D.

Senior Member
This is a good article on the subject ,..
http://www.iaei.org/subscriber/magazine/05_e/johnston.htm

The technical committee was very specific to clearly indicate in the exception that concrete-encased electrodes of pre-existing buildings or structures are not required to be part of the grounding electrode system where using them would involve disturbing existing concrete. Otherwise the Code requires them to be used in the grounding electrode system, which could include planning and coordination to make this happen, just as planning and coordination is required for many other aspects of the building construction.

If the concrete work is done and curred it has been built or constructed ..
 

Cavie

Senior Member
Location
SW Florida
M. D. said:
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
Question: Is it the intent of 250.50 that reinforcing steel, if used in a building footing, must be made available for grounding?
Answer: No.
Issue Edition: 1978
Reference: 250-81
Issue Date: March 1980
[/FONT]

Time to invest in some new books M.D.
 

M. D.

Senior Member
Cavie said:
Time to invest in some new books M.D.

I found it online ,... a newsletter from mike holt 2002, I think it still applies , see the exception , the concrete is not,.. IMO , required to be chopped up. How would I know if the requirements of what a CEE is , are met??
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
M. D. said:
If the concrete work is done and curred it has been built or constructed ..

If there was never a certificate of occupancy for the building it is 'new' not existing and the NEC requires the uffer to be used if it exists.
 

Cavie

Senior Member
Location
SW Florida
I can only speak for Florida construction. If it is a footer it will have 1/2 rebar. It will be in direct contact with earth on all sides. Bottom will have plastic under it. I say get the jack hammer out. My boss says install a ufer in the driveway.
 

M. D.

Senior Member
iwire said:
If there was never a certificate of occupancy for the building it is 'new' not existing ....

Got some back up on this?? not being a jerk ,..just can't find it in the definition of structure or building for that matter.
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
I have in my hands a few pages from

The Commonwealth of Massachusetts
Department of Fire Services
Board of Fire Prevention Regulations

TO: Licensed Construction Supervisors

FROM: William Laidler and Donald Gioombetti

SUBJECT: Concrete encased electrodes and the 2005 MA Electrical code.

DATE: 11/4/04


Notice who it was sent to.

It's two pages going into great detail

Connections must be made by licensed EC

Connections must be inspected prior to pour

Here are a couple of parts

From about the middle...

If this process is not followed, the consequences could be severe, potentially resulting in a requirement to dismantle and rebuild the foundation



Almost the last paragraph exactly as they printed it

In a nutshell,IF THERE WILL BE REINFORCING STEEL IN THE FOOTING OR BOTTOM OF A FOUNDATION IN ANY BUILDING you erect after the new year, then THERE MUST BE AN ELECTRICAL CONNECTION MADE (or arranged for if the steel will extend out of the concrete) AND AN ELECTRICAL INSPECTION PERFORMED PRIOR TO THE CONCRETE POUR

IMO it is quite clear that at least in MA you better get a lead on the steel with an inspection before the pour.
 

M. D.

Senior Member
Cavie said:
I can only speak for Florida construction. If it is a footer it will have 1/2 rebar. It will be in direct contact with earth on all sides. Bottom will have plastic under it. I say get the jack hammer out. My boss says install a ufer in the driveway.

I'm not sure about this Plastic ....??
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
M. D. said:
Got some back up on this?? not being a jerk ,..just can't find it in the definition of structure or building for that matter.

What does the definition of a structure or building have to do with it?

It was either an existing something or a new something.

If it's a new something and it has 1/2" or larger steel in the footing you either plan to use it or break concrete to get it.
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
>>>Bump to new page

I have in my hands a few pages from

The Commonwealth of Massachusetts
Department of Fire Services
Board of Fire Prevention Regulations

TO: Licensed Construction Supervisors

FROM: William Laidler and Donald Gioombetti

SUBJECT: Concrete encased electrodes and the 2005 MA Electrical code.

DATE: 11/4/04


Notice who it was sent to.

It's two pages going into great detail

Connections must be made by licensed EC

Connections must be inspected prior to pour

Here are a couple of parts

From about the middle...

If this process is not followed, the consequences could be severe, potentially resulting in a requirement to dismantle and rebuild the foundation



Almost the last paragraph exactly as they printed it

In a nutshell,IF THERE WILL BE REINFORCING STEEL IN THE FOOTING OR BOTTOM OF A FOUNDATION IN ANY BUILDING you erect after the new year, then THERE MUST BE AN ELECTRICAL CONNECTION MADE (or arranged for if the steel will extend out of the concrete) AND AN ELECTRICAL INSPECTION PERFORMED PRIOR TO THE CONCRETE POUR

IMO it is quite clear that at least in MA you better get a lead on the steel with an inspection before the pour.
 

augie47

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Tennessee
Occupation
State Electrical Inspector (Retired)
Cee

Cee

Bob, I'm clear on you stand and I don't disagree with you.
That said, TN State code is still 2002. No doubt when 2005 or 2008 is adopted there will be problems.
I would like to know how other inspectors handle the situation when the CEE has not been used on new construction. Cavie says, I beleieve, their jurisdiction requires a CEE ber installed in the driveway. Others ????
 

M. D.

Senior Member
Bob do you know if that is available online??
Bob the foundation , footings and such are inspected and paper work is signed off on them ?? from that moment on it exists

And here is a formal interpretation that no doubt made less splash but is very important none the less,.. same board and a good one for this catch IMO.
I hope the rest of the States are paying attention.:smile:

Where multiple concrete encased electrodes, as described in 250.52(A)(3) are present, and at least one of the concrete encased electrodes is connected to the grounding electrode system, is it permitted to omit from the grounding electrode system any additional such electrodes?

Answer: Yes.
 

infinity

Moderator
Staff member
Location
New Jersey
Occupation
Journeyman Electrician
chris kennedy said:
I'm not seeing this. 250.50 says if present shall be bonded together...

250.52(A)(3) says or 20' of bare copper...

So I walk up to the footer and the rebar is smaller than 1/2", but to my good fortune 20' of #4 bare was "present" in the footer.

Bob, Trevor point me in the right direction as to why a UFER is not required if present.

Thanks


Think of the CEE like the water pipe. If there is no 10' metal underground water pipe is there a requirement to install one? Nope, but you could if you wanted to. Same for the CEE, if there is 1/2" or larger rebar you must use it, if there isn't there is no requirement to make a CEE. You can if you choose by putting 20' of #4 Cu in the bottom of the footing but you are not required to do so.
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
M. D. said:
Bob do you know if that is available online??
Bob the foundation , footings and such are inspected and paper work is signed off on them ?? from that moment on it exists

Yes, but 'they' (the building dept) knows it is a new building, they know there would have to be a CEE inspection if the drawing show steel in the footing.

a good one for this catch IMO.
I hope the rest of the States are paying attention.:smile:

I think the NEC is addressing this as well. :)

I think George put in a proposal about the same issue. :)


BTW, I have not found it on line, I have tried.

Maybe I can scan and post the one I have.
 

chris kennedy

Senior Member
Location
Miami Fla.
Occupation
60 yr old tool twisting electrician
Well Gnole, I can see we have accurately answered this question for you. Is there anything else we can do for you today?

BTW welcome to the Forum!
 

George Stolz

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Windsor, CO NEC: 2017
Occupation
Service Manager
M.D., the entire point of the change in 250.50 from the 2002 to the 2005 was to require the Ufer to be used in new construction. Johnston's proposal was initially rejected on the grounds that it would require chipping the concrete out on old houses, houses built prior to the 2005 coming into effect.

Johnston's defense of the proposal when it was rejected (as a fellow CMP member in dissent):
JOHNSTON: The panel statement is directed to existing installations. It is understood that this requirement is not feasible for existing installations and the intent of this proposal was not directed in any way to existing installations. Generally, the Code is not retroactive.

The word available as used in this section is creating inconsistencies in the field relative to which grounding electrodes are required to be used in electrical installations. The concrete encased grounding electrode is a proven effective electrode and is inherent to the construction of most buildings or structures and should be included in the grounding electrode system as such. The NEC style manual recommends not using the word "available" to avoid this very type of inconsistency in application and enforcement Code rules.
The comment on affirmative (the statement supporting the rejection) even made it clear that new installations, installations without a C.O., would benefit from the strengthened wording, but as worded it would require chipping of concrete on a 50 year old house.

Comment on Affirmative:
BOKSINER: While the proposed requirement is not feasible for existing installations where all the electrodes are not available, it is feasible and desirable for new installations. The words "if available" should be changed to "if available in existing installations or if present on new installations." There is precedent in the NEC for a distinction between new and existing installations.
Come ROC time, Johnston submitted a comment, it was accepted, and entered the 2005 code.

Johnston said:
Substantiation: For clarification, it was not intended that this proposed change to this section cause the rule to be applied to existing buildings or buildings with existing footings. This revision would remove the word “available” from a mandatory requirement and be consistent with the Style Manual direction that encourages the word “available” be avoided. The section as previously worded left a lot of questions as to what the requirement of the section really is providing.

If effective electrodes are inherent to building construction, it should be clear that all such electrodes should make up the grounding electrode system and be used. It is also a style manual recommendation to avoid
the word “available” in mandatory Code rules. The revision should help clarify what is intended relative to the grounding electrode system for buildings or structures.
They agreed, and used Johnston's proposal in concert with Cartal's comment/suggestion:

________________________________________________________________
5-81 Log #1365 NEC-P05 Final Action: Accept in Principle
( 250.50 Exception )
________________________________________________________________
Submitter: Andre R. Cartal, Princeton Borough Building Dept.
Comment on Proposal No: 5-115
Recommendation: The Panel should accept this proposal with the following Exception:
Exception: Concrete-encased electrodes in footings of existing buildings shall not be required to be part of the grounding electrode system.

Substantiation: The words “if available” has prevented the use of a proven grounding electrode for too many years. These words have no place in the NEC. From the inspector's viewpoint, it presents a no-win enforcement problem.

The removal of these words will require electrical design professionals to specify and also enforce compliance with 250.50.

Panel Meeting Action: Accept in Principle

Revise 250.50 to read as follows:
“250.50 Grounding Electrode System. All grounding electrodes as described in 250.52(A)(1) through (A)(6) that are present at each building or structure served shall be bonded together to form the grounding electrode system. Where none of these grounding electrodes exist, one or more of the grounding electrodes specified in 250.52(A)(4) through (A)(7) shall be installed and used.

Exception: Concrete-encased electrodes of existing buildings or structures shall not be required to be part of the grounding electrode system where the steel reinforcing bars or rods are not accessible for use without disturbing the concrete.”

Panel Statement: Implementation of requirements proposed in 5-115 is not feasible for all installations. An exception is needed to prevent situations where concrete would be required to be disturbed. Additional editorial changes were made to improve clarity.

Number Eligible to Vote: 16
Ballot Results: Affirmative: 16
Comment on Affirmative:
ROBERTSON: I am voting in the affirmative, however, I would like to make a comment on this one.

I agree with the substantiation that the words “if available” have prevented the use of a proven electrode for too many years. By removing the words “if available” and replacing with the proposed text will now mean the Authority Having Jurisdiction will need to be aware of the sequence of construction and the reality that in a lot of cases the concrete encased electrode is, in fact, not available by the time the decision is made on which electrical contractor will be doing the project.

It will now become the responsibility of the Authority Having Jurisdiction to make sure these electrodes are made available for use prior to the concrete being poured in the foundations.

On far too many projects the foundations, spread beams, piers and grade beams are poured prior to awarding the electrical work on a project. This concern should not be a factor in making the change, it will however, require some changes in the timing of when electrical contracts are awarded in some areas.

Electrical contractors will need to keep this in mind when accepting projects.
M. D., the panel has laid out in no uncertain terms, especially in light of Robertson's statement, that a new building with a new cured footer with a Ufer in it had better be connected to the GES, or somebody would be chipping concrete.
 
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