Grounding Satellite Dish in Apartment

[jreamer]

Re: Grounding Satellite Dish in Apartment

Thanks for the reply wayne. Do you know of any other route than the FCC to take this? As I said earlier in the post, I filed a petition with the FCC and they are unwilling to set a precedent allowing me to run a ground wire off my porch. They said with that precedent they would have to allow people to put dishes off their porch as well, and run ground wires as far as they needed to. So if there is a local authority or somehing in Indiana that would be great. Thanks for helping me out.

 

[pierre]

Re: Grounding Satellite Dish in Apartment

Why don't you call the dish company? They may be able to help here. Also you seem to be looking for the correct way to install this as well, which is great. Just do not ground this incorrectly as you may have a fire or shock hazzard installation - something you may not have been aware of. The antenna will still be required to be grounded, then bonded to the premises system.

 

[electricaldoc]

Re: Grounding Satellite Dish in Apartment

How about using the NEC or electrician if you are unfamiliar with it; to prove it is needed ?which it is?. Then present it to apartment complex, and tell them any one having satellite dish is now in a potential shock risk. Point out now that they know this if situation is not corrected, and some one is hurt there will be a law suit.

Dan

 

[hbiss]

Re: Grounding Satellite Dish in Apartment

Playing the devil's advocate here but I can understand the FCC's position.

This guy happens to be on the ground floor and 5 feet away from the building electrical service. What happens with a dish on the 4th floor and no where near the electrical service? Face it, ain't no way you are going to comply with 810.21 to the letter.

The alternative to not grounding at all (which is ALWAYS the case in these circumstances) would be to bond to the electrical ground or cold water piping within the unit, unless there is building steel accessable.


-Hal

 

[jreamer]

Re: Grounding Satellite Dish in Apartment

I finally decided to just install the dish inside my apartment. It really was the only way to install it without grounding it. I've been talking to mike holt about this issue, our concern is that they(FCC) require apartments to allow us to have dishes but they in essence dont require it to be a safe installation. In most cases people either dont ground the dish or use an outlet, neither are approved by the NEC. I understand as well why the fcc would be hesitant to allow residence to leave their exclusive use area, but in most cases, mine as well it is because they offer their own cable or TV service and just dont want people to have another option. The FCC should really make apartments provide a ground and just charge us for it.

 

[hbiss]

Re: Grounding Satellite Dish in Apartment

The FCC should really make apartments provide a ground and just charge us for it.

Ain't no way that could or would be done either even if the FCC said so.

Devil's advocate here again. A dish on top of a roof is one thing but an 18" dish sitting on a ground level patio next to a wall or even screwed to a window frame on the 4th floor - where's the hazard? Might as well require that barbecues be grounded too.

This is another place that the NEC falls short because it's written with a broad stroke with no input from the dish industry. Not all receiving antennas are the same and not all locations are the same. Exceptions and alternatives need to be made to the general rule.

800.30 makes exceptions according to "lightning exposure" (see FPN #2) and exposure to conductors over 300 volts. Why can't 810 do that with small dishes at these locations?

-Hal

 

[jwelectric]

Re: Grounding Satellite Dish in Apartment

Originally posted by hbiss:
Might as well require that barbecues be grounded too.


800.30 makes exceptions according to "lightning exposure" (see FPN #2) and exposure to conductors over 300 volts. Why can't 810 do that with small dishes at these locations?

-Hal

2002 cycle (B) Electrode. The grounding conductor shall be connected in accordance with 800.40(B)(1) and (B)(2).

2005 cycle 800.100 (B) Electrode. The grounding conductor shall be connected in accordance with 800.100(B)(1) and (B)(2).

Why do you believe that article 800 allows the grounding electrode to be exempted?

The protectors that you are speaking of are installed by the utility company. This dish that is being installed is a big receiver for a lighting strike inside or outside.

 

[jreamer]

Re: Grounding Satellite Dish in Apartment

Do you need to ground a dish inside an apartment as well? I don't really see how lightning could hit it. If so what is a safe way to ground a dish indoors? Not neccesarily an NEC way, just safe.

 

[hbiss]

Re: Grounding Satellite Dish in Apartment

Just using 800.30 as an example of where the Code does address the probability of accidential contact with conductors over 300 volts or exposure to lightning.

800 has nothing directly to do with receiving antennas, dishes or their grounding, but it's interesting to note what they say about how the location of the outdoor aerial cables effects the protector requirements.

Seems the TELCOs have more clout than the dish companies.

-Hal

[ October 24, 2005, 05:28 PM: Message edited by: hbiss ]

 

[LarryFine]

Re: Grounding Satellite Dish in Apartment

Originally posted by hbiss:
Might as well require that barbecues be grounded too.

They probably would if they had a conductor running indoors.

 

[LarryFine]

Re: Grounding Satellite Dish in Apartment

Originally posted by jreamer:
. . . what is a safe way to ground a dish indoors? Not neccesarily an NEC way, just safe.

The best non-NEC way would probably be to the nearest metallic cold-water piping; next would be the electrical service EGC. It should be that these two are already interconnected.

 

[hbiss]

Re: Grounding Satellite Dish in Apartment

No reason to do anything with the dish sitting indoors. The dish would be grounded through the receiver its connected to, not that it would need to be grounded anymore than a metal coffee table would.

There is continuity between the LNB and dish sheet metal. The shield on the coax serves as the grounding conductor between the dish and receiver.

-Hal

 

[petersonra]

Re: Grounding Satellite Dish in Apartment

Originally posted by LarryFine:

Originally posted by jreamer:
. . . what is a safe way to ground a dish indoors? Not neccesarily an NEC way, just safe.

The best non-NEC way would probably be to the nearest metallic cold-water piping; next would be the electrical service EGC. It should be that these two are already interconnected.

As long as the dish is inside, there is nothing inherently unsafe about not grounding it at all.

Grounding it to an inside outlet or a cold water pipe does not solve the problem of grounding if it is located outside.

The real issue is this - if the thing is outside, you want to encourage a lightning strike to go to ground instead of inside your apartment. Running the wire inside just encourages it to come inside. This is not a good thing.

If it is already inside, there is no real lightning issue.

 

[jwelectric]

Re: Grounding Satellite Dish in Apartment

Do a little reading on thes site before making up your mind on inside or outside.


Edited to add:

ball lightning
No scientific documentation such as photos, videos, or other recordings of ball lightning exist, so experts have had to rely on eyewitness accounts, which have been numerous. Judging from such accounts, balls of lightning are typically between a golfball and a basketball in size, about as bright as a 60-watt light bulb, and often red, orange, or yellow in color. Observed shooting through the air, across the ground, and or even into houses, they are fleeting, generally lasting a few seconds before vanishing gradually or abruptly.

[ October 25, 2005, 01:40 PM: Message edited by: jwelectric ]

 

[hbiss]

Re: Grounding Satellite Dish in Apartment

Grounding it to an inside outlet or a cold water pipe does not solve the problem of grounding if it is located outside.

The real issue is this - if the thing is outside, you want to encourage a lightning strike to go to ground instead of inside your apartment. Running the wire inside just encourages it to come inside. This is not a good thing.

Agreed. BUT what do you do when there is no ground available? Do you prohibit the installation? Do you install it without a ground?

In my opinion the installation should be prohibited because of the way the code is written- no ground, no dish- but you know that isn't going to happen.

-Hal

 

[jwelectric]

Re: Grounding Satellite Dish in Apartment

Originally posted by hbiss:

In my opinion the installation should be prohibited because of the way the code is written- no ground, no dish- but you know that isn't going to happen.

-Hal

I agree - no ground, no dish-

 

[LarryFine]

Re: Grounding Satellite Dish in Apartment

I humbly stand corrected. (But don't start with me about outlets! )

 

[petersonra]

Re: Grounding Satellite Dish in Apartment

I have a question. The code does not seem to indicate that it does not apply to indoor antennas yet clearly certain types of indoor antennas are are not grounded and do not seem to present a hazard (rabbit ears come to mind).

if you install the dish inside, how is it any different from any other antnenna installed inside?

 

[jwelectric]

Re: Grounding Satellite Dish in Apartment

When reading article 810 I first look at the scope;

810.1 Scope.
This article covers antenna systems for radio and television receiving equipment, amateur radio transmitting and receiving equipment, and certain features of transmitter safety. This article covers antennas such as multi-element, vertical rod, and dish, and also covers the wiring and cabling that connects them to equipment. This article does not cover equipment and antennas used for coupling carrier current to power line conductors.

Here is where I see the word dish so I know that a dish receiver is covered in this article.
As I read the article I am looking for relief from the grounding electrode conductor for an inside installation. The only reference I find to the indoor installation is in 810.18(C) but find no relief on the grounding electrode conductor.

In 810.21(G) it states that this conductor is allowed to be installed inside or outside which leads me to believe that a dish installed indoors would be required to be grounded.

 

[petersonra]

Re: Grounding Satellite Dish in Apartment

I agree. so why are rabbit ears not grounded ion this way? The description of antenna certainly covers them.