Grounding wooden poles

[M. D.]

Err nope, we were talking about what the NEC imply there required electrode systems are for. not Lightning protection systems.

sure a properly installed Lightning protection system installed by a UL certified Lightning protection system specialist, can contribute to the reduction of damage caused by lightning, but this is a whole nother ball game from the electrode requirements of the NEC, and even then, a properly install LPS will not fully guarantee total protection.

Having the understanding of the limits of what something can do or not, can go along way in determining how much money one should spend, trying to do something that cant be accomplished with just a few ground rods.

NFPA 780 installed systems are not cheap.

Thanks for clearing that up because like I've said ,..the O.P. sounded as if he were installing some sort of homespun LPS ,. he never said that the butt electrode was required or that it was going to be installed and used as an equipment grounding conductor .. soo as the old J. Geils song goes
,

...I believe I musta,
You know I think I musta,
You know baby I think I musta,
You know I think I musta,
I musta got lost!!!!!!!

 

[kbsparky]

...,..the O.P. sounded as if he were installing some sort of homespun LPS ,. he never said that the butt electrode was required or that it was going to be installed and used as an equipment grounding conductor .. soo as the old J. Geils song goes
,

As the OP here, I want to re-iterate that installing ground rods, butt grounds, or butt plates was only intended for supplemental lightning protection. There will be a suitable EGC installed with the fixture conductors, and AFAIK, that is the only thing actually required by the NEC.

These poles are fifty feet tall, and will have grounded lighting fixtures mounted at the top. Since they are around an open field, they are the tallest structures around, and there is nothing else even remotely close by that lightning might want to venture over to strike. Ask yourself the question: Would YOU want to be sitting on top of one of those poles with an impending storm approaching?

So I ask you, what is the potential for damage by lightning without any supplemental protection? Would that be lessened or minimized by the installation of one or more of the methods discussed here, or am I wasting time and money by even considering installing them? Consider that the EGC is at least 100 feet away and up to 400 feet or more from the distribution panel, where the NEC required Grounding electrodes will be installed.

 

[hurk27]

As the OP here, I want to re-iterate that installing ground rods, butt grounds, or butt plates was only intended for supplemental lightning protection. There will be a suitable EGC installed with the fixture conductors, and AFAIK, that is the only thing actually required by the NEC.

These poles are fifty feet tall, and will have grounded lighting fixtures mounted at the top. Since they are around an open field, they are the tallest structures around, and there is nothing else even remotely close by that lightning might want to venture over to strike. Ask yourself the question: Would YOU want to be sitting on top of one of those poles with an impending storm approaching?

So I ask you, what is the potential for damage by lightning without any supplemental protection? Would that be lessened or minimized by the installation of one or more of the methods discussed here, or am I wasting time and money by even considering installing them? Consider that the EGC is at least 100 feet away and up to 400 feet or more from the distribution panel, where the NEC required Grounding electrodes will be installed.

I think the problem is there is no way to stop the lightning from hitting the lighting rack, and a direct point of attachment to the lighting rack will induce very high currents and or voltages within the fixtures, you could lesson the probability of the point of attachment to the rack/fixtures, by installing a air contact point above the lighting rack/fixtures, and running a separate grounding down lead, to an electrode, but this will have only a minimal effect, as the high level of currents of even a near by strike can still be introduced into the wiring of the fixtures. this is the approach we use when we do a installation like this, but we never place any guarantee that lightning will not damage the fixtures or equipment, also keeping your fixture cables short as possible to their junction boxes, and running metal race way up the pole, will also lesson the effect of lightning.

I have in most cases, just ground a round point on the end of a 10' copper rod, and pointed the round end up above the lighting rack, keeping it independent of the lighting rack, and strapped it to the top of the pole or bored in into the top of the pole using a clamp plate to secure it, as it can come out and hit someone while raising the pole, and just run a down lead from it to the bottom of the pole electrode separate of the EGC, and at the electrical junction box at the bottom of the pole bond a #6 to the same electrode. of course the NFPA 780 require a listed air contact point to be installed, but then some states also require you to be licensed and UL certified to install lightning protection system?

 

[jeffhornsby]

We do alot CORP work and they had a radar site that was hit I think 400 times a year on average. We installed ion brushes and they have not been hit in 4 years.

 

[hurk27]

We do alot CORP work and they had a radar site that was hit I think 400 times a year on average. We installed ion brushes and they have not been hit in 4 years.

Do you have a link for these, I just tried my search program which uses all the search engines, all at once and all I can find is makeup brushes, and air cleaners?

I have never heard of them?

 

[M. D.]

Sounds like these folks got it going on

http://lecglobal.com/solutions/lightning/protection/dissipation-array-system/

 

[hurk27]

Sounds like these folks got it going on

http://lecglobal.com/solutions/lightning/protection/dissipation-array-system/

And I have some cap banks to sell you to save some money at your house:roll:

All these so called charged Ion emitting lightning systems, have been tested to the extreme around the world, and even at camp Blanding, Fl. and have been found they do no more than a common installed air terminals.

They even admit that they don't follow NFPAs 780.

don't get hooked on snake oil, there is allot of it out there.

 

[M. D.]

snake oil or rabbit crap ??? I'm not sure,.. I do find it interesting that at first you could not find these using several search engines and now you seem to have the knowledge from extensive world wide testing :-?

Hurk27

Do you have a link for these, I just tried my search program which uses all the search engines, all at once and all I can find is makeup brushes, and air cleaners?

I have never heard of them?

How about a link . You know I love to read , and for what it is worth I'm not buying anything,..(notice the wording of my post)..just posting information and opinions .

 

[hurk27]

snake oil or rabbit crap ??? I'm not sure,.. I do find it interesting that at first you could not find these using several search engines and now you seem to have the knowledge from extensive world wide testing :-?

What I couldn't find was these "Ion Brushes" posted in this post:

We do alot CORP work and they had a radar site that was hit I think 400 times a year on average. We installed ion brushes and they have not been hit in 4 years.

This must be a relative new term, to describe an early emission, charged LPS system, after many years of debunking these devices by science, they keep changing the name or term of them to try to say they are something different, very common ploy when they want to sell something that doesn't work, as proposed.

How about a link . You know I love to read , and for what it is worth I'm not buying anything,..(notice the wording of my post)..just posting information and opinions .

ok her ya go, read away:

Magic.PDF

early-streamer-emission.pdf

These two papers is what it is all about, I wasn't trying to put you down or anything, I was just trying to bring to light the deceptive products that these companies try to put on the market, that do not do what they claim.

If you really want to do some reading on the subject, here is a list of lightning links, that will fill you in on about every thing about lightning.

Click on "related websites" in left menu

I spent 2 years at UFL, doing a credit to an AS in communication electronics, at Mid Florida Tech. back in 1978, and the course was great, and the experience on lightning was fantastic.

 

[M. D.]

Thanks for the reading material Hurk,... I appreciate it .

 

[kbsparky]

I think the problem is there is no way to stop the lightning from hitting the lighting rack, and a direct point of attachment to the lighting rack will induce very high currents and or voltages within the fixtures, you could lesson the probability of the point of attachment to the rack/fixtures, by installing a air contact point above the lighting rack/fixtures, and running a separate grounding down lead, to an electrode, but this will have only a minimal effect, as the high level of currents of even a near by strike can still be introduced into the wiring of the fixtures. this is the approach we use when we do a installation like this, but we never place any guarantee that lightning will not damage the fixtures or equipment, also keeping your fixture cables short as possible to their junction boxes, and running metal race way up the pole, will also lesson the effect of lightning.

I have in most cases, just ground a round point on the end of a 10' copper rod, and pointed the round end up above the lighting rack, keeping it independent of the lighting rack, and strapped it to the top of the pole or bored in into the top of the pole using a clamp plate to secure it, as it can come out and hit someone while raising the pole, and just run a down lead from it to the bottom of the pole electrode separate of the EGC, and at the electrical junction box at the bottom of the pole bond a #6 to the same electrode. of course the NFPA 780 require a listed air contact point to be installed, but then some states also require you to be licensed and UL certified to install lightning protection system?

Interesting scenario here. Keep the bonding of the air contact point (lightning rod?) separate from the EGC at the top, but connecting them together at the bottom. If I were to utilize an upside-down ground rod, it should already have a point on it?

 

[hurk27]

Interesting scenario here. Keep the bonding of the air contact point (lightning rod?) separate from the EGC at the top, but connecting them together at the bottom. If I were to utilize an upside-down ground rod, it should already have a point on it?

But that is the point, you don't want a sharp point on it, round is much better for air contact points, also keeping the down lead separate from the EGC's till the common connection point at the electrode, hopefully keeps most of the lightning current off the branch circuit. this is the same theory behind keeping a single bonding point outside of a building, for all electrode systems in most LPS.