Grounding

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Oakey

Senior Member
Location
New Jersey
I went on a service call the other day to simply replace a dimmer switch. When I had the 2 switches out of the box I noticed that the neutral and ground were twisted together. I separated them so I guess handyman whoever was in there at one point. Luckily when done I had 120 V from line to white. Unfortunately I only had 77V to ground. At 5:30 at night the only thing I could think to do was run a #12 thhn green to the main water meter which luckily was directly in the room in back of the switches and got my 120V. Now a few days later I'm wondering if I did the right thing? Any input is appreciated.
 

bdarnell

Senior Member
Location
Indianapolis, IN
Occupation
Retired Engineer
Was a ceiling fan involved anywhere ? I've seen HO's and even electricians grab the ground a make it a neutral when changing a ceiling light to a paddle fan with light kit. They needed two hots, so they made the neutral a 2nd hot and the ground a neutral, etc.

Just a guess. :?:

I'd say you need to dig into this and find out what's going on. Something is wrong and it's still not fixed.
 

cj1111

Member
lost nuetral

lost nuetral

i have noticed on a few service calls, the same thing. what i have found is that when someone loses there neutral, instead of finding out why they tie the neutral and the ground together to get there neutral back. it is not right but it does work.
 

Oakey

Senior Member
Location
New Jersey
There is a paddle fan, I went back yesterday and verified it thx... also that the "handyman" installed it. I warned them about the possible hazards and not to delay the repair... hopefully they will let me fix it soon.
 

Joedell

Member
Outlets not grounded

Outlets not grounded

Can you guys help me? My son is buying a house. None of the remodeled basement outlets are grounded. Does the NEC require outlets to be grounded? If so, what is the code reference number?
Thanks, Joe Dell
 

infinity

Moderator
Staff member
Location
New Jersey
Occupation
Journeyman Electrician
Joedell said:
Can you guys help me? My son is buying a house. None of the remodeled basement outlets are grounded. Does the NEC require outlets to be grounded? If so, what is the code reference number?
Thanks, Joe Dell


Joe, why not start another thread with your question? This thread is about troubleshooting a ground to neutral connection. Just a thought.
 

suemarkp

Senior Member
Location
Kent, WA
Occupation
Retired Engineer
When were the circuits installed? Older houses didn't require grounded receptacles. Over time, more and more circuits were required to be grounded. Now, all new circuits must be grounded. Extensions to ungrounded circuits can be made if GFCI's are used.

There is no requirement when selling to upgrade things that were code when they were built to the current codes today. If these are GFCI protected, that covers most of the safety issues. But be sure to test them frequently...
 

tom baker

First Chief Moderator
Staff member
Joedel:
You are far better off with GFCI's than having grounded receptacles installed. The NEC permits a 2 wire recp to be replaced with a 3 wire if it is properly grounded, or a 2 wire to be replaced with a GFCI.
A grounded outlet introduces a shock path to ground. A non grounded GFCI does not have the shock path to ground and a GFCI does not have to be grounded to operate.
Hire a qualifed electrican to evaluate and replace the receptacles. Go with GFCI if possible.
Could you do it yourself? Maybe> While it seems simple there are variations that can complicate it.
We can't help DIYers, by the way.
And if the installation was legal and permitted when installed, its legal today.
 

LarryFine

Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
Location
Henrico County, VA
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
tom baker said:
Joedel:
You are far better off with GFCI's than having grounded receptacles installed. The NEC permits a 2 wire recp to be replaced with a 3 wire if it is properly grounded, or a 2 wire to be replaced with a GFCI.

Actually, it allows you to replace a 2-wire recep with another 2-wire recep, or to replace a 2-wire recep with a 3-wire recep if it's protected via a GFCI device.

A grounded outlet introduces a shock path to ground. A non grounded GFCI does not have the shock path to ground and a GFCI does not have to be grounded to operate.

If I'm understanding your point, a properly-wired grounding receptacle is safer, and is rarely part of the pathway of a shock-inducing current. A GFCI will protect people from 2-wire-equipped equipment better.

Hire a qualifed electrican to evaluate and replace the receptacles. And if the installation was legal and permitted when installed, its legal today.

Agreed and agreed.
 

Joedell

Member
Joedell said:
Can you guys help me? My son is buying a house. None of the remodeled basement outlets are grounded. Does the NEC require outlets to be grounded? If so, what is the code reference number?
Thanks, Joe Dell
As instructed go to new thread 'GROUNGING'
 

Joedell

Member
Joedell said:
Can you guys help me? My son is buying a house. None of the remodeled basement outlets are grounded. Does the NEC require outlets to be grounded? If so, what is the code reference number?
Thanks, Joe Dell
Let me clarify my request
This basement was re-finished less than 10 years ago and all of the receptacles are three-prong type and are NOT grounded. What I need to know is the NEC that pertains to grounding newly installed receptacles.
Joe Dell
 

petersonra

Senior Member
Location
Northern illinois
Occupation
engineer
Joedell said:
Let me clarify my request
This basement was re-finished less than 10 years ago and all of the receptacles are three-prong type and are NOT grounded. What I need to know is the NEC that pertains to grounding newly installed receptacles.
Joe Dell

How do you know they are not grounded?
 

George Stolz

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Windsor, CO NEC: 2017
Occupation
Service Manager
Joe, it wouldn't be a bad idea to contact an electrician to look around the house and look for more of this kind of stuff.

Home inspectors tend to miss things on electrical. A good electrician could likely locate more violations.

I have to say, such a new basement containing ungrounded receptacles sounds very odd. Someone would have to go out of their way not to ground the receptacles.
 

suemarkp

Senior Member
Location
Kent, WA
Occupation
Retired Engineer
georgestolz said:
I have to say, such a new basement containing ungrounded receptacles sounds very odd. Someone would have to go out of their way not to ground the receptacles.

My house was built in the 60's with only a few circuits grounded. The previous owners remodeled much in 1985. They added grounding type receptacles and used wire with an equipment ground. The problem is, this wire was just connected to the metal boxes on circuits that used old NM with no grounding wire. So everything appeared grounded, but it isn't.

The house still had some of the old two prong receptacles. Before I bought it, I pulled the covers off those and saw a ground wire. Amazingly, those ground wires were good (so they got new 3 prong receptacles). I also checked some random 3-prong receptacles with a 3 light tester. They all tested good. It wasn't until later that I discovered some of the ungrounded wire segments in the upstairs bedrooms. These are going to be difficult to get a grounding wire to, but some day I'll get to it.

So its not hard to get ungrounded receptacles if the house was originally wired before grounding was fully required. The rewire in 1985 was done by idiots -- they didn't know which wire should go to the brass screw, many grounds were just twisted, two separate circuits got interconnected, wires were wrapped counter clockwise around screws, #14 and #12 wires were mixed (at least they were all 15A circuits), there were 20 receptacles on one circuit with a 10 amp fridge on the last one, there is some poly water pipe buried at 6" containing regular NM cable for a branch circuit to an outbuilding (and surprisingly that circuit still works fine even with the GFCI I added to protect it), etc.
 

radiopet

Senior Member
Location
Spotsylvania, VA
LarryFine said:
Actually, it allows you to replace a 2-wire recep with another 2-wire recep, or to replace a 2-wire recep with a 3-wire recep if it's protected via a GFCI device.

Don't forget that in the case of the 2 wire on 3 wire recepts and using a GFCI device the receptacles must be labeled as no ground and GFCI protected.
 

LarryFine

Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
Location
Henrico County, VA
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
radiopet said:
Don't forget that in the case of the 2 wire on 3 wire recepts and using a GFCI device the receptacles must be labeled as no ground and GFCI protected.
Correctamundo! In addition, any additions to existing circuits without EGC's should not have the EGC's connected. This is so any malfunctioning equipment won't pass its unintentional enclosure energization along to another.
 

roger

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Fl
Occupation
Retired Electrician
LarryFine said:
Actually, it allows you to replace a 2-wire recep with another 2-wire recep, or to replace a 2-wire recep with a 3-wire recep if it's protected via a GFCI device.

Originally posted by Tom Baker
A grounded outlet introduces a shock path to ground. A non grounded GFCI does not have the shock path to ground and a GFCI does not have to be grounded to operate.

Originally posted by Larry Fine
If I'm understanding your point, a properly-wired grounding receptacle is safer, and is rarely part of the pathway of a shock-inducing current.

Larry, Tom is saying the opposite is true, think about it, especially if this was a wooden stucture with a wooden floor.

A wooden floor/wooden structure would undoubtedly be safer with GFCI protection and no EGC.

Roger
 
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LarryFine

Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
Location
Henrico County, VA
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
roger said:
Larry, Tom is saying the opposite is true, think about it, especially if this was a wooden stucture with a wooden floor.

A wooden floor/wooden structure would undoubtedly be safer with GFCI protection and no EGC.

Why would no EGC be safer, as long as the EGC is properly bonded and earthed?
 
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