Grounding

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Larry, it's because the properly bonded and earthed EGC is just that. With out this path, if you did contact the Ungrounded condutor or source of voltage you would be isolated with no path to complete the circuit.

Roger
 
roger said:
A wooden floor/wooden structure would undoubtedly be safer with GFCI protection and no EGC.

Roger
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I agree, as I look around my living room it would be imposable for me to be 'grounded' if not for the grounds the electrical system brought in.
 
Larry,

I think what he is saying is that because of the LACK of ability for the "USER"...(wow...thats a bad term..lol) has a less chance of being the PATH of least resistance in a situation like that versus if their was a concrete floor and so on.

However it does not remove the fact other factors could make it a potential hazard....I think he is saying with the GFCI anyway since it simply measures the change between the ungrounded and grounding conductor it is a slightly more protective environment...because regardless of the potential of lets say METAL Bonded contact..the GFCI will protect in the long run.
 
radiopet said:
Larry,

I think what he is saying is that because of the LACK of ability for the "USER"...(wow...thats a bad term..lol) has a less chance of being the PATH of least resistance
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Radiopet, the USER only has to be a path of ANY resistance, electricity takes all paths to source.

Roger
 
suemarkp said:
is some poly water pipe buried at 6" containing regular NM cable for a branch circuit to an outbuilding (and surprisingly that circuit still works fine even with the GFCI I added to protect it), etc.
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Why would the conductors care what was used as a raceway? There are several obvious code violations, but that does not mean it won't work or that it is inherently dangerous.

Since you did not change it out, you seem to agree it is not dangerous and that it is likely to continue to work.
 
There are many things in the code book that are not allowed that I don't think are improper (mostly relating to listing/labeling, but minimum disconnect sizing and the use of 310.15(B)(6) are others). But I try to do them to code unless its really difficult not to. I haven't changed this out because its too much work to do it and the building will be torn down in a few years. If it fails, I don't think it will be unsafe, it just won't work any more.
 
grounding outlets with no ground wire

grounding outlets with no ground wire

I need some clarification on the grounding outlets in metal boxes, i should say old boxes, that had no previous ground. I used to think you could just run a piece of wire from the back of the box to the receptical ground screw, but it doesnt' always work, or iv'e seen guys tie the neutral to the ground screw on the recept. but thats not how we learned . so aside from running a new ground from the panel, is ther any other way??


C.C.
 
See 250.130, and 406.3(D) for your options.

If the existing wiring method has an acceptable ground-fault current path described in 250.118, then you can use that as the EGC.
 
Using the Grounded conductor (neutral) to ground a receptacle is a NO-NO.
You can always install a GFCI receptacle (406.3(D).
I work a lot on older homes, most of which weren't equipped with grounding type receptacles when built. If I'm installing a EGC , I will usually run a #6cu bare from the panel (or GEC) and thru the attic (or basement) to the general area above or below where the ground is needed. Using #6 (or larger) allows me to take any path I need to get there. From there, I will tap off of the #6, and run a smaller grounding conductor to the receptacles (250.122). This only requires one run from the panel and gives a convenient spot to tap from in any future addition. Usually I will remove the old receptacle box and replace it with a cut-in. This gives me a hand hole to fish the grounding conductor out of the wall. I have in the past run around the outside of the building and tapped thru the wall and directly into the receptacle box. I only do this if there is no crawl space or attic access. Some receptacles must be grounded, and this is the fastest and easiest method that I've found.
Read 250.130(C) and 250.120(C) and 406.3.
steve
 
Don

A Leviton rep was at the 80 Annual Seminar for the Ohio Chapter of the IAEI.

He showed that the GFCI would not work without the egc.

I also spoke the a rep from NFPA at the meeting about this.
 
What the Leviton rep said is wrong.
If a GFCI is required an EGC then it would not be allowed to replace a non grounded receptacle.
 
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What do you mean would not work? Would the receptacle not energize? Wouild it not trip using an external tester? Would it not trip using the test button? A GFCI that requires a grounding conductor is fairly worthless. There is little need for GFCI on a piece of equipment that is properly grounded. We need GFCI for the equipment out there that has no equipment ground.
 
I mean it would not energize. Yes.

Remember this was Leviton's mock up. I do not know personally whether or not the new ones will work since they will not be introduced until Oct.
 
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