H/O running own wire

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Oakey

Oakey

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New Jersey
I am doing a large addition and the $$'s is tight. I gave the H/O a price on the electric stove wiring (kitchen designer changed it from gas after I started) and he rejected it. Being almost done with the rough in I went to finish up some home runs and noticed the H/O had run the oven line and said he would do all the oven work. I assume he will do the same for the 2 new furnaces as well. It doesn't really bother me from a money point of view, I am just wondering about the liability of this and if anyone else has dealt with it. I am ready for my rough in inspection and told him to get his own permit for the oven. Do I make him sign a waiver ?
 
Danger Will Rogers! Danger!!!

Danger Will Rogers! Danger!!!

Oakey,
How can he get his own permit? Is he an electrician? And if his work ends up burning the house down sometime down the road do you think that waiver will really protect you? I have a friend who's a lawyer and he says a lot of times waivers and the like aren't worth the paper they're written on when things get really ugly. I wouldn't take on the liability. I like to sleep at night:smile:
 
In this area you can get a H/O's permit. This is a new and unexpected event for me. I hope I dont have to pay a lawyer...I like sleep
 
I had that happen to me once. HO started wiring his basement, right after we finished the rough. During inspection, I told inspector about it and he made a note of it. IMHO that should be proof that the said wiring was not installed by you and you should not be held liable for anything that happens. As for the permit I'd say thats the HO's problem.
 
How does his work look? Would you be comfortable with the way it's done if it had been your helper who pulled it in? I hate to say it, but even if it does look ok I'd be a little bit leery to leave it and take the liability. What would happen if you addressed the HO on this? Maybe you're ok with a HO permit. I would probably drop a dime and ask your inspector about it.
 
Let him get his own permit and accept the liability for his own work. This is really no different than having two contractors with two permits on the same job.
 
TommyC said:
Oakey,
How can he get his own permit? Is he an electrician? And if his work ends up burning the house down sometime down the road do you think that waiver will really protect you? I have a friend who's a lawyer and he says a lot of times waivers and the like aren't worth the paper they're written on when things get really ugly. I wouldn't take on the liability. I like to sleep at night:smile:
Click to expand...

If you own a house you can pull your own permit... as long as it is single family and basically a family member does the work... not really a problem though most electricians do like to frown upon it. What liability would he be taking on? The coincidence that the EC and homeowner pull a permit at the same time for two different jobs?
 
In Vermont single family owner occupied dwellings are not inspected except in a few of the bigger towns by the locales and thats mostly for building and safety (smoke det.s and gfci receptacles is about all they check), When I make out a bill I write the scope of the work I did and also mention the work that someone else has done, when I receive payment I have a record of it. It is a touchy subject especially when you know the customer well.:roll:
 
I wouldn't lose a wink of sleep over it.

You have a contract and a permit which detail the scope and nature of your work. If someone should run some extra wires, how are you liable? While it IS possible that YOU ran the wires sans permit, it is unlikely that a bonafide EC - that already has an open permit on the job - would not simply amend it for the extra work required and avoid the whole liability discussion.

I would not ask the HO to sign any sort of waiver.
 
I would send a letter to the building dept of the township (certified mail - return receipt - on your letterhead) indicating that the homeowner installed and connected this wiring and make a follow up call to insure that it becomes part of their construction folder. That may not get you off the hook with respect to a lawsuit but at least it will put you on record and it establishes a time line in case the oven causes a fire or electrocutes someone due to improper wiring. Then you can go to sleep with a clear conscience. I know I would.

In many states ( like here in NJ) a homeowner can pull a permit to do electrical work on his own (1-family) home. He/she cannot pull a permit on multiple family dwellings or commercial properties irrespective of whether they own the building(s) or not.
 
No matter what you do if something happens and a lawsuit arises you can bet your name will be on it.

Me, I wouldn't worry about it. As mentioned bring it to the attention of the building department in writing. This way you at least have something to back yourself up if that makes you feel better.

I'd probably just make note of it on the final invoice and move on. I don't tend to wory about stuff like that.
 
H/o

H/o

That is the reason each EC should specify what is the scope of his work to be done. Here in Ma the permits have a good break down so you can CYA, there is a space for other so you can get really specfic. If I'm not mistaken in our state it says property owner, this really opens up a can of worms.:-?
 
Oakey said:
I am doing a large addition and the $$'s is tight. I gave the H/O a price on the electric stove wiring (kitchen designer changed it from gas after I started) and he rejected it.
Click to expand...

He can afford a kitchen designer but can't afford to pay an electrician to run the stove wiring ( typical ).

Many times the customer will want to run their own circuit but will want you to terminate at the panel. Don't do it. Let him finish the job he started under his own permit.
 
HO doing partial work.

HO doing partial work.

First, in my contract I include a clause that the owner has to sign that "only a licensed electrical contractor shall do any work on said project, and only after an agreement in writing with the original licensed electrical contractor (me)" Then I specifically document what is includeded AND what is not included in the terms of the contract. If the homeowner won't agree, in writing, in advance, then the contract gets ripped.

Secondly, if the HO violates that clause, I have invested in a small digital camera, and I photograph anything anyone else has done, who did it, the date, and then I make any JHA aware of the change. Then, I finish only what my contract states. I do not terminate, provide materials for, cover, nor trim any work anyone else has started.
 
Oven in Question

Oven in Question

I don't know about having a HO go out and get his own permit, I really don't like it. Thats why me and my gang are there in the first place. As far as the HO pulling and terming an oven, I don't really like that much either.

Why don't you take a few pics of "his" work for your project record just so you can CYA. I quess if my customer insisted on "doin a lil lectric" I would take the ten minutes and have him understand exactely how to install this animal, correctly, neatly, and in compliance.

Is'nt this what it is all about, with code compliance, workplace safety, and being a licensed professional. I was allways taught the only reason the NEC ever came about was to prevent deaths/injuries from the use of electricity.



Just my two cents fellas

Steve
 
sundowner said:
I quess if my customer insisted on "doin a lil lectric" I would take the ten minutes and have him understand exactely how to install this animal, correctly, neatly, and in compliance.
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The problem with this is that giving your advice may negate your attempt to CYA, similarly to the way that advising DIY's here in the forum promotes a liability problem if they run into issues attempting to follow our advice.

The last thing you want is him telling 'whom it may concern' that his house burned down because he installed something "the way you said he should." Know what I mean, Vern? :rolleyes:
 
First if they could afford a large addition why can`t they afford the cost of you roughing in the additional wiring ???

Secondly, Some areas do not allow a HO to do the electrical work themselves.

Third, If the original rough was permitted under you then any work IMO would be under your EC #,that is if the HO didn`t pull a permit.

I did a large 2M+ home a few years ago where the HO was the builder.After the rough in he wanted to move a 4 gang box and add some receps.He balked at the price.No way was his answer It was like $150.00.I went back 2 weeks later to hook up the spa mister he had installed and saw the 4 gang moved (not cut in) and 2 extra recps added.I contacted the office and had them write up a nice letter informing them his warranty was voided since he did his own work.

He called and said he wanted his warranty,to get it he was told we had to inspect the entire system in the house.2 men 5 hours later at $40.00/ hr/man he should have paid us from jump street to do the extra work :)
 
"I contacted the office and had them write up a nice letter informing them his warranty was voided since he did his own work."

That is exactly what I put in my contracts. If anyone but me works on the project, the warranty is voided.
 
Make him pull his own permit

Rough and final inspection fees will probably cost him almost as much as your labor would have been
 
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