H/O running own wire

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sundowner said:
I quess if my customer insisted on "doin a lil lectric" I would take the ten minutes and have him understand exactely how to install this animal, correctly, neatly, and in compliance.
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Last year I was called to install some receptacles in the laundry room on the second floor by a GC. 12/2 Romex had already been fished from the basement ( looked good on each end ). I decide I had better re-pull the fished conductors from the basement. Big flying splice in the middle of one of them, wires twisted and taped. The inspector would not have caught this and I couldn't see it.

Never trust a homeowner or contractor. They know it's your responsibility and they don't care what they do.

If you have to train them, watch to make sure they don't make any mistakes and inspect the final intallation you should be paid for the time.
It's not going to be 10 minutes. It's normally faster to do the job yourself than to show a homeowner how it's done.
 
wow I cant belive all this. This HO is broke and cant afford to pay his electrician to install a feeder to the range. So he does it himself. So now his house is going to burn down because the electrician didnt install it. I really doubt this would happen. When the inspector comes out wont he look at that cable as well. I say forget the getting another permit just for the one cable, besides I'll bet he will pay you to wire the receptacle and the breaker when it comes time. Take a look at his install and make sure that it meets code. Sounds like this HO is trying to do the right thing, after all he did hire you to do the job. The only thing different is now he has less money.
 
jack horner said:
wow I cant belive all this. This HO is broke and cant afford to pay his electrician to install a feeder to the range. So he does it himself. So now his house is going to burn down because the electrician didnt install it. I really doubt this would happen. When the inspector comes out wont he look at that cable as well. I say forget the getting another permit just for the one cable, besides I'll bet he will pay you to wire the receptacle and the breaker when it comes time. Take a look at his install and make sure that it meets code. Sounds like this HO is trying to do the right thing, after all he did hire you to do the job. The only thing different is now he has less money.
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I can`t believe that you feel that way................
#1 - the ec on the job bears the responsibility of each and every part of what is
installed of the permitted job.If you allow the HO to install their own range wire and it is inspected under the current permit, then the EC is resonsible for that HO wire.

#2 - Part of what we charge is for the responsibility of the job as well as the material and labor.

#3 - I`ve seen some HO work that was installed after rough in that was just plain hack work

I myself have voided at least 10 warranties over the past 5 years for just this.HO adding to what was wired even if it was to save a few bucks.
 
allenwayne said:
#1 - the ec on the job bears the responsibility of each and every part of what is installed of the permitted job
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Per the OP, the range wiring was not part of his permitted job. It was a plan change, for which the HO has the option in that jurisdiction of pulling a separate permit.

allenwayne said:
#2 - Part of what we charge is for the responsibility of the job as well as the material and labor.
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Sure, but at the time of the OP the range wiring was not the EC's responsibility. He hadn't been hired to do it.

allenwayne said:
#3 - I`ve seen some HO work that was installed after rough in that was just plain hack work
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If the HO gets a permit and a separate inspection for a separate circuit, that's really between the HO and the inspector. The warranty in this case really is a non-issue, since the EC's warranty would not cover work not performed by that EC. If the HO can legally do the range wiring and have it pass inspection, then the HO would have to issue his own warranty for that job. :)
 
This problem arises because of the contracting practice of the electrical contractor giving the GC a tight bid for a minimum code job with the plan to stick it to the homeowner, who has no alternative, for any changes.

If the changes are priced on the same basis as the rest of the job, then the homeowner has much less incentive to want to do his own work.

There are things that can be done to level the playing field.

1. Specify the quantities of units of work, and award the contract based on the total resulting from unit prices submitted by the contractor multiplied by the quantities; with the provision that any increase or decrease up to 10 percent of the bid quanitites will be paid at the unit price bid for the work.

2. If the contractor tries to take advantage of me, he soon discovers that I can be very particular about requiring precise compliance with the drawings, specifications, codes, standards, and terms of the contract; even if they don't really matter to the finished product or the owner. The contractor usually concludes that it is in his interest to be reasonable.

3. Sometimes a contractor wants a change to make it easier for him to do his job. If he has made it difficult for me, he will probably not get approval for the change. I had a subcontractor who asked for a change to save himself some money, and then submitted a bill for his management and engineering effort to implement the change. The next one he submitted was rejected and he was made to understand that future requests for such changes would also be rejected.
 
In the jurisdicition in which I work, the electrician of record would be held responsible for the electric installed on the job when the house was built. If the homeowner wishes to do part of the wiring himself, the ec will either need to accept the responsibility for that wiring, as it was done under his permit, or demand that the homeowner request the inspection on the wiring that he did. It would be up to the ec to prove that any wiring was installed by others. I see many headaches and much liability if you allow this to happen. Chances are everything will be fine; but how much of a gamble do you wish to take. It seems that many homeowners have plenty of money for everything but the electrical work. They install the finest of everything, upgraded floor coverings, upgraded cabinets, etc. and then cry to the electrician that they don't have the money to install the wiring!
 
allenwayne said:
I can`t believe that you feel that way................
#1 - the ec on the job bears the responsibility of each and every part of what is
installed of the permitted job.If you allow the HO to install their own range wire and it is inspected under the current permit, then the EC is resonsible for that HO wire.

#2 - Part of what we charge is for the responsibility of the job as well as the material and labor.

#3 - I`ve seen some HO work that was installed after rough in that was just plain hack work

I myself have voided at least 10 warranties over the past 5 years for just this.HO adding to what was wired even if it was to save a few bucks.
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I dont believe the electrician would be responsible for someone elses work. I agree with the warranties would not cover the work done by the HO. What if the HO pulled the permit and you were working under his permit. I've also worked on jobs with more than one EC and we worked under the same permit. I dont belive that if something happened the only one of them would be standing tall in front of the man! I guess I'm a "glass is half full" type of guy. Beside he didn't say the work was HACK!
 
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Reading all the posts I'll have him grab his own permit and I will remind Mr. Inspector about it.

I definitely have to rewrite my contracts tho just for cases like this... I read a post over at at ECN about how the GC ran his own PVC due to cost so I guess this is common it just hasnt happened to me yet.. This is uncharted waters for me so the posts in this thread are a huge help. How about adding a simple sentence like,

"Homeowner is responsible for permit ,inspection and all electrical work/warranty regarding electric oven(or whatever).
Any suggestions/additions?
 
Bob NH said:
This problem arises because of the contracting practice of the electrical contractor giving the GC a tight bid for a minimum code job with the plan to stick it to the homeowner, who has no alternative, for any changes.
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Do you really think that a residential remodeling job where the homeowner hires a kitchen designer is likely to be code minimum?
 
growler said:
Do you really think that a residential remodeling job where the homeowner hires a kitchen designer is likely to be code minimum?
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I would hope not. My remark was related to other comments in this forum about the practice of the EC agreeing with the GC for a minimum to-code installation expecting that they would get opportunities for change orders that the homeowner would have to pay for at non-competitive prices.
 
Oakey said:
I read a post over at at ECN about how the GC ran his own PVC due to cost so I guess this is common it just hasnt happened to me yet.
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I would ask the GC for a copy of the permit and inspection for the conduit work before agreeing to using the conduit.
 
Not trying to throw a wrench in the gears here, but it has come to mind that this whole thing centers around a kitchen addition/remodel.Why did the issue of a range not come up from jump street????That red flag would have been the first thing to me.

As far as a HO adding after the fact, I have gone into a new home where we passed rough in and have found added conduit from the panel to the attic as well as added closet lights that had no means of clearance.Those thin LV boxes I call them with 2 pieces of NM in them.Also flood lights and outside gfci receptacles.BTW the inspector was a really sharp guy and caught it on the final.After i had the office send out one of those (your warranty is voided letters)The inspector noted that the additions were not part of the original inspection and were either to be removed or the walls opened for another inspection.

On a side note the HO was a guy that was an electrician for a pool company.But never did an actual home just the pools.:)
 
Another log on the fire(no pun):

The plumber and his permit

The gas line/connection would be shown on his permit/drawings and ultimately, that inspector will be looking for that connection....and the plumber his money.
 
LarryFine said:
I would ask the GC for a copy of the permit and inspection for the conduit work before agreeing to using the conduit.
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Really. You have asked for inspection records for every existing conduit system you have come acrossed.
 
jack horner said:
Really. You have asked for inspection records for every existing conduit system you have come acrossed.
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If you refer to the post at ECN, it was the GC that installed the conduits, on a new job, not an existing conduit.

On existing conduits other liability issues arise, and yes, i would want to know if the existing system was both approved and inspected.
 
It was just something new to me. Now I have it under my belt and in my contract.. problem solved thx to the good advice given here. Got my inspection today and informed him of the situation since he questioned why the oven was not on my permit. This particular insp. is VERY tough and I knew he'd pick up on it hence why I wanted to know what to do and say. He was there almost 2.5 hrs measuring wire lenght out of rec etc... average for him.
Good luck with the hookup Mr H/O you'll need it
 
jack horner said:
Really. You have asked for inspection records for every existing conduit system you have come acrossed.
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No, but I also wouldn't want an inspector to fail my work because a conduit I used never had a ground-work inspection.

This is not just about the money for the conduit work. As Satcom said, read the thread on the other forum.
 
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