hard wired EV chargers

[brycenesbitt]

Can you quote the section that would allow that? The way I read it, 50A is the largest receptacle allowed.

So 625.44(A)(3)
"grounding-type receptacle outlet rated at"
"250 volts, single phase, 30 or 50 amperes" or
"125/250 volts single-phase 30, 50 or 60 amperes"
..
Do I now read that correctly that 3-wire is OK for 50A but 4-wire is required for 60A? What use is the neutral at that point?

 

[retirede]

View attachment 2571720

So 625.44(A)(3)
"grounding-type receptacle outlet rated at"
"250 volts, single phase, 30 or 50 amperes" or
"125/250 volts single-phase 30, 50 or 60 amperes"
..
Do I now read that correctly that 3-wire is OK for 50A but 4-wire is required for 60A? What use is the neutral at that point?

60A must be new for 2023. I was looking at 2020..

Agree about the neutral.

 

[brycenesbitt]

60A must be new for 2023. I was looking at 2020..
Agree about the neutral.

Anybody submitted a PI about that? The use case for a neutral on a 60A receptacle seems imaginary.....

 

[LarryFine]

As I've said before, in my opinion, it is dangerous and irresponsible to leave a neutral terminal floating.

There is nothing to prevent a matching plug, with a load expecting the neutral, from being inserted.

Either connect the neutral or use a receptacle configuration that does not provide a neutral terminal.

 

[retirede]

Anybody submitted a PI about that? The use case for a neutral on a 60A receptacle seems imaginary.....

Since I didn’t even realize it was changed for 2023 until this thread, I have no idea about any PIs, either!

 

[Gene B]

There is a subtle "idiot proofing" reason to favor 14-xx over 6-xx for EVSEs, which is that a 6-xx receptacle could be specifically for an arc welder and have undersized wire, for example 10awg wire with a 50A breaker and 6-50R.

 

[LarryFine]

There is a subtle "idiot proofing" reason to favor 14-xx over 6-xx for EVSEs, which is that a 6-xx receptacle could be specifically for an arc welder and have undersized wire, for example 10awg wire with a 50A breaker and 6-50R.

I'm not saying that a 6-50 should necessarily be used, just that a 14-50 without the neutral shouldn't.

Someone is as likely to plug in something other than a welder as they are something other than an EV.

 

[tortuga]

There is a subtle "idiot proofing" reason to favor 14-xx over 6-xx for EVSEs, which is that a 6-xx receptacle could be specifically for an arc welder and have undersized wire, for example 10awg wire with a 50A breaker and 6-50R.

Most people with a large home welder
A) are smart enough not to do that
and
B) dont wire their welder plugs that way.
And besides they probably would want a hard wired charger.
I have never seen that welder exception used in a dwelling garage.
I just dont think that justifies the wasted miles of wire being installed for neutrals that are not used.
I think a 6-50 or hard wired are the way to wire EV chargers.

 

[brycenesbitt]

There is a subtle "idiot proofing" reason to favor 14-xx over 6-xx for EVSEs, which is that a 6-xx receptacle could be specifically for an arc welder

Rather the opposite. A 14-xx series lets you buy crap on Amazon that uses the neutral.
No neutral: no problem. The 6-xxx is safer in that way.

 

[Fred B]

Neutral or no neutral required is dependent on the EV Charger mfg.
for instance ChargePoint Home Flex Has no neutral connection within the Unit, on the other hand the Eaton Green Motion EV charger does require a neutral and on the plugin model requires a 14-50 receptacle. The ChargePoint plug in comes with either 6-50 or 14-50 cord type but on the 14-50 the neutral is clipped by mfg. at the unit connection point.

I've yet to see a 60A plug-in model.

 

[hillbilly1]

Eaton requires a neutral because they don’t manufacture a contactor that accepts 208/240, so they use a 120 volt coil. At least that was the reason years ago. I’ve met with their engineers on designing the controller for easier installs on the commercial units. One suggestion I had for them was to install a loadcenter in each pedestal so a larger feeder could be looped between them, and tapped off just like an rv pedestal. Don’t know if they ever tried it.

 

[retirede]

Neutral or no neutral required is dependent on the EV Charger mfg.
for instance ChargePoint Home Flex Has no neutral connection within the Unit, on the other hand the Eaton Green Motion EV charger does require a neutral and on the plugin model requires a 14-50 receptacle. The ChargePoint plug in comes with either 6-50 or 14-50 cord type but on the 14-50 the neutral is clipped by mfg. at the unit connection point.

I've yet to see a 60A plug-in model.

The 2023 NEC is the first to allow 60A plug-in.

 

[Greg Swartz]

Hardwired: No. Not for Tesla or others.
Plug in: Yes. Regardless of manufacturer.

Side note: GFCI nuisance tripping is over 50%. I warn customers ahead of time of this.
Talked to the building department about it, and they say: "I'm only enforcing the code." (Which is true.)
Customer asks me to remove the GFCI and put in a "normal" breaker, I will, and put it on the invoice.
Told the building department that too... they told me they understood.

Unfortunately, we have legislated in requirements that cause problems with the premise of saving people's lives.
To actually make things work, I need to go AGAINST code... and all the liability is on me.
That sucks.

 

[Greg Swartz]

Forgot to mention: Every hardwired one we install does not require a neutral.
Plug in: It varies. If they want a NEMA 14, obviously yes. But a NEMA 6 or NEMA 10, nope. Mercedes and BMW offer those options. Think Rivian does too.

Ampacity is all over the place:
New F150 Lightnings WANT 100A, so does the Hummer
Tesla WANTS 60A
The majority want 50A: Mercedes, BMW, Jaguar, others.
VW only wants 40A.
The old Chevys want 30A. Same with Toyota.
(Obviously, you can give it less... just takes longer to charge.)

 

[hillbilly1]

Forgot to mention: Every hardwired one we install does not require a neutral.
Plug in: It varies. If they want a NEMA 14, obviously yes. But a NEMA 6 or NEMA 10, nope. Mercedes and BMW offer those options. Think Rivian does too.

Ampacity is all over the place:
New F150 Lightnings WANT 100A, so does the Hummer
Tesla WANTS 60A
The majority want 50A: Mercedes, BMW, Jaguar, others.
VW only wants 40A.
The old Chevys want 30A. Same with Toyota.
(Obviously, you can give it less... just takes longer to charge.)

The older Eaton hardwired commercial charging stations required a neutral, don’t know if it is still true.

 

[retirede]

Forgot to mention: Every hardwired one we install does not require a neutral.
Plug in: It varies. If they want a NEMA 14, obviously yes. But a NEMA 6 or NEMA 10, nope. Mercedes and BMW offer those options. Think Rivian does too.

Ampacity is all over the place:
New F150 Lightnings WANT 100A, so does the Hummer
Tesla WANTS 60A
The majority want 50A: Mercedes, BMW, Jaguar, others.
VW only wants 40A.
The old Chevys want 30A. Same with Toyota.
(Obviously, you can give it less... just takes longer to charge.)

As of the 2024 model year, the F150 Lightning is no longer capable of 80A charging (100A branch circuit). Back to 48A max (60A branch circuit). A certain fleet-only model is one exception.

In any case, the maximum current is the lesser rating of either the EVSE or the vehicle.