Has anyone used these new breakers from Sq D?

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QO Dual Function Circuit Breakers Just looking for feed back?


QO Dual Function Circuit Breakers













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[h=1]QO Dual Function Circuit Breakers - The QO Dual Function Circuit Breaker combines two state-of-the art technologies; Combination Arc Fault and Ground Fault protection, in a single, easy-to-install device[/h]
 

GoldDigger

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QO Dual Function Circuit Breakers Just looking for feed back?


QO Dual Function Circuit Breakers
[h=1]QO Dual Function Circuit Breakers - The QO Dual Function Circuit Breaker combines two state-of-the art technologies; Combination Arc Fault and Ground Fault protection, in a single, easy-to-install device[/h]

Either a catalog link or a larger image would have been convenient. But we have been looking for something like this to come along for awhile now.
Whether it works as advertised or not would seem to be the question. And at what cost, of course.
 

ELA

Senior Member
Interesting. It says GFI, not GFCI, yet they say it replaces a GF receptacle?

A 2 second trip time on Arc Fault. Sounds like someone is learning.
 

GoldDigger

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Location
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Interesting. It says GFI, not GFCI, yet they say it replaces a GF receptacle?

A 2 second trip time on Arc Fault. Sounds like someone is learning.
1. The trip threshold is ~6ma, which makes it a GFCI no matter what the marketing calls it.
2. The 2 second delay is only for the last fault cause indication with the Test button held down while resetting. It does not indicate how long the actual fault will take. Overcurrent trip does not always take 5 seconds either.


Tapatalk!
 

Sierrasparky

Senior Member
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USA
Occupation
Electrician ,contractor
Except for the 2014 NEC where would these be required?
Correct me if I am wrong but the 2011 code does not require GFCI protection in kitchens, bathrooms , garages ,...
 

ELA

Senior Member
GoldDigger,
Would you kindly post the link to the source of the information you provided as it was not consistent with what I read in the PDFs at the link provided by PetrosA.
 

GoldDigger

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GoldDigger,
Would you kindly post the link to the source of the information you provided as it was not consistent with what I read in the PDFs at the link provided by PetrosA.

It is all from PetrosA's link.

1. Regarding GGCI:
Ground Fault (class A) protection.
By definition, class A Ground Fault protection has a 6ma threshold and is also commonly known as GFCI. From the second PDF document link:
The 2014 National Electric Code now requires both Combination Arc Fault
and Ground Fault protection on all 1-Pole, 15 A, and 20 A kitchen and laundry
circuits. Prior to the release of the Dual Function Circuit Breaker, a contractor
or homeowner?s only choice was to use a Combination Arc Fault circuit breaker
in conjunction with an expensive, bulky Ground Fault receptacle.
The fact that they do not call the receptacle a GFCI receptacle indicates to me that they are just not using that terminology for some reason.


2. Regarding AFCI trip time, from the first document link (PDF on Time Saver Diagnostics):
Describing how to retrieve information on the previous trip cause, you hold down the test button while closing the breaker (a different process than pressing the test button after the breaker is closed, and possibly requiring that whatever fault occurred has already been cleared, by removing the branch circuit lead if necessary, that part is not clear.) It is possible based on what they say that the handle will latch but the breaker will not actually close if the test button is held down. That would make the test safer
When you hold down the test button and close the breaker, one of three things will happen, even if there is no current fault.
1. The breaker handle will trip in less than one second. This indicates a ground fault detection (unbalanced current, including arcing, or the separate test for ground/neutral connection on the wrong side of the unit) was the cause of the previous trip.
2. The handle will trip at 2 seconds. This indicates that the previous trip was caused by a series arc or a parallel arc other than to ground.
3. The handle will trip at 5 seconds. This indicates that the previous trip was caused by overcurrent OR that there was no previous trip event recorded. (The breaker was opened manually? The breaker's memory was reset somehow, as perhaps by removing power from the line side? Lots of uncertainty there.)
OK, 4. The handle does not trip at all. The breaker failed the TEST function, so you have no idea what may have gone on before.

I do not see any wording anywhere that indicates that a normal trip for AFCI signature detection will take 2 seconds.
 

GoldDigger

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I do not see any wording anywhere that indicates that a normal trip for AFCI signature detection will take 2 seconds.

Although I must admit that their wording of "is detecting a ... fault" makes me wonder if this particular design is unlike some combined AFCI and 30ma breakers I have seen instructions for, the Square D unit is not actually remembering the previous fault but rather telling you what the current fault is by delaying the trip. I hope not, since that would remove a lot of the diagnostic information in the case of intermittent faults and holding off an overcurrent trip for five seconds does not sound like a really good idea....
 

ELA

Senior Member
Thank you, I saw the Class A after first posting and re-reading.

It was the other part that I also missed about the diagnostic mode. It is rather poor wording since you are actually entering a diagnostic mode and using the handle trip as an indicator of the previous trip cause.
 

GoldDigger

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Yup. The wording could (should be) a lot cleaner IMHO. Especially since it is not at all clear how it works.

In particular I would love to be reassured that flipping the handle with the test button held down does not actually close the breaker! :)

Tapatalk!
 

480sparky

Senior Member
Location
Iowegia
Except for the 2014 NEC where would these be required?
Correct me if I am wrong but the 2011 code does not require GFCI protection in kitchens, bathrooms , garages ,...

Where GFCIs are currently required, the 2014 will also require AFCI protection. So instead of installing an AFCI to feed a dead-front GFCI device next to the panel, you install one of these.
 

Sierrasparky

Senior Member
Location
USA
Occupation
Electrician ,contractor
Ok so what states have adopted the 2014?
It will be years before the left coast will adopt.

Anyway was it not GE that was removing the GF detection on their AFCI's ?
 

PetrosA

Senior Member
Don't let the catalog list price scare you, I'm sure they will be expensive enough but will probably be at least half of list price in the catalog for most of us.

That's hard to believe since it would make it cheaper than the AFCI breakers are now. Last time I had to buy a SquareD AFCI it cost me about $48 plus tax. That was from a SquareD distributor with whatever discount my account gets me, which isn't much considering I don't install SquareD. Buying in bulk directly from SquareD (I know one contractor who does this) it would have been about $10-12 cheaper. Still, considering either these dual function breakers or an AFCI with a GFCI deadfront/receptacle and the number of circuits that will be required to be protected with both types of protection under the 2014 code, it's not gonna be cheap for customers to get even code minimum installed.
 

Sierrasparky

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Location
USA
Occupation
Electrician ,contractor
That's hard to believe since it would make it cheaper than the AFCI breakers are now. Last time I had to buy a SquareD AFCI it cost me about $48 plus tax. That was from a SquareD distributor with whatever discount my account gets me, which isn't much considering I don't install SquareD. Buying in bulk directly from SquareD (I know one contractor who does this) it would have been about $10-12 cheaper. Still, considering either these dual function breakers or an AFCI with a GFCI deadfront/receptacle and the number of circuits that will be required to be protected with both types of protection under the 2014 code, it's not gonna be cheap for customers to get even code minimum installed.

Why would you need deadfront GFCI. Just place them in an accessable area. Who says you need to place the fridge on a seperate circuit or for that matter make it the first outlet in the run.
 

PetrosA

Senior Member
Why would you need deadfront GFCI. Just place them in an accessable area. Who says you need to place the fridge on a seperate circuit or for that matter make it the first outlet in the run.

480sparky mentioned using deadfronts. Some refrigerators (notably dual compressor types) often specify a dedicated circuit in the instructions, so...
 

Sierrasparky

Senior Member
Location
USA
Occupation
Electrician ,contractor
480sparky mentioned using deadfronts. Some refrigerators (notably dual compressor types) often specify a dedicated circuit in the instructions, so...


Then I suppose you are talking about readily accessable. Well I you can guess what I think of that one.
I do recall that the illustrative handbook is not the code. SO you know how I will be implementing that one. It will be years before any local will be using the 2014 nec.
 

Ragin Cajun

Senior Member
Location
Upstate S.C.
I can just see the average homeowner trying to do the diagonistics. Just another case of the codes going nuts!

Just think of all the service calls during the warranty period the electricians will have to make!

Having personally suffered through several lightning strikes and fried GFCI's (but nothing else), think of a whole panelboard of fried AFCI's, etc.!!!!

RC
 
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