Has anyone used these new breakers from Sq D?

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
I can just see the average homeowner trying to do the diagonistics. Just another case of the codes going nuts!

Just think of all the service calls during the warranty period the electricians will have to make!

Having personally suffered through several lightning strikes and fried GFCI's (but nothing else), think of a whole panelboard of fried AFCI's, etc.!!!!

RC
surge suppressors might just be well worth it for this reason.

If you can prove it was lightning caused damage, why should you have to warranty it?
 

mopowr steve

Senior Member
Location
NW Ohio
Occupation
Electrical contractor
Except for the 2014 NEC where would these be required?
Correct me if I am wrong but the 2011 code does not require GFCI protection in kitchens, bathrooms , garages ,...
Here's were it is going to be used. Kitchen circuits are to be arc fault protected in 2014 NEC and the dishwasher (which is in the kitchen ) also in the2014 NEC is required to be GFI protected the question is, is by putting the gfi receptacle under the sink considered "readily accessible" and some like to use a split receptacle down there to run the garbage disposal. Aha!
 

Sierrasparky

Senior Member
Location
USA
Occupation
Electrician ,contractor
Here's were it is going to be used. Kitchen circuits are to be arc fault protected in 2014 NEC and the dishwasher (which is in the kitchen ) also in the2014 NEC is required to be GFI protected the question is, is by putting the gfi receptacle under the sink considered "readily accessible" and some like to use a split receptacle down there to run the garbage disposal. Aha!
I think these combo breakers should work fine. AFCI by most already have GF protection to some point. It should be just a matter of adjustment of the GF sensitivity.
 
It is all from PetrosA's link.

1. Regarding GGCI: By definition, class A Ground Fault protection has a 6ma threshold and is also commonly known as GFCI. From the second PDF document link:

The fact that they do not call the receptacle a GFCI receptacle indicates to me that they are just not using that terminology for some reason.


2. Regarding AFCI trip time, from the first document link (PDF on Time Saver Diagnostics):
Describing how to retrieve information on the previous trip cause, you hold down the test button while closing the breaker (a different process than pressing the test button after the breaker is closed, and possibly requiring that whatever fault occurred has already been cleared, by removing the branch circuit lead if necessary, that part is not clear.) It is possible based on what they say that the handle will latch but the breaker will not actually close if the test button is held down. That would make the circuit breakers test safer When you hold down the test button and close the breaker, one of three things will happen, even if there is no current fault.
1. The breaker handle will trip in less than one second. This indicates a ground fault detection (unbalanced current, including arcing, or the separate test for ground/neutral connection on the wrong side of the unit) was the cause of the previous trip.
2. The handle will trip at 2 seconds. This indicates that the previous trip was caused by a series arc or a parallel arc other than to ground.
3. The handle will trip at 5 seconds. This indicates that the previous trip was caused by overcurrent OR that there was no previous trip event recorded. (The breaker was opened manually? The breaker's memory was reset somehow, as perhaps by removing power from the line side? Lots of uncertainty there.)
OK, 4. The handle does not trip at all. The breaker failed the TEST function, so you have no idea what may have gone on before.

I do not see any wording anywhere that indicates that a normal trip for AFCI signature detection will take 2 seconds.
What is main reason you need this type of breaker? How sensitive is the equipment you're trying to protect? It says that a Class A GFCI trips when the current to the ground has a range of 4 milliamps to 6 milliamps, and references UL 943, the Standard for Safety for Ground-Fault Circuit-Interrupters.
 
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kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
What is main reason you need this type of breaker? How sensitive is the equipment you're trying to protect?
Last couple code cycles have increased the number of places where AFCI protection is required in dwellings, some of those changes include places where GFCI protection is also required. These requirements have nothing to do with sensitivity of the equipment served, they are personnel shock / electrocution protection from the GFCI, and life and property/ fire protection from the AFCI - whether you agree with the AFCI concept or not - that is what their intended purpose is.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
Except for the 2014 NEC where would these be required?
Correct me if I am wrong but the 2011 code does not require GFCI protection in kitchens, bathrooms , garages ,...
First I think you meant AFCI where you said GFCI.

And true 2011 doesn't necessarily require both GFCI and AFCI protection in general at any particular location, but you can still end up needing an occasional GFCI protected receptacle on a circuit where AFCI protection is required. Most times people are using a GFCI type receptacle though for those applications, but a combination breaker that has both types of protection would be suitable.

Examples that 2011 would apply both types of protection:

An outdoor receptacle fed from a living room or bedroom - the outdoor receptacle itself doesn't require AFCI protection, but the entire circuit feeding the living room or bedroom does.

A receptacle near a wet bar sink.

A dining room receptacle that is supplied by same SABC that serves countertop receptacles.
 

fmtjfw

Senior Member
I'll bet that adding Class A GFCI (~6mA) is a small matter of a software (firmware) change to the logic in the breaker and actually doing the testing required for a Class A listing. The only recurring cost is the added testing.

Most of the transparent AFCI breaker samples I've seen already have the differential current transformer around the neutral/hot conductors.
 

GoldDigger

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Placerville, CA, USA
Occupation
Retired PV System Designer
This was all covered already in another discussion.
The 2 and 5 second times are when using the handle trip as an indicator for the readout of the previous trip cause when in diagnostic mode.
(Hold TEST button down while closing the handle.)

Tapatalk!
 
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