Hayward Pool Products says NOT to install GFCI breaker on their 240v HeatPumps

Jamie Lynn

Member
Location
Kentucky
Occupation
Pool Tech
I recently received a tech update bulletin from Hayward Pool Products that specifically says that they "do not require or recommend GFCI breakers on their heat pumps" which operate at 240v. I can't post the link because it requires you to have a dealer login and I cant see how to attach a PDF file here, but will gladly email you a copy because I fell this needs attention. I am not a licensed electrician but have a working knowledge of these heaters and several times when trying to diagnose an intermittent breaker trip, have been suggested by their in-house technicians to replace the GFCI breaker with a standard breaker (which I refuse to do). I forwarded the bulletin to my local inspector, which he forwarded to several others. They all agree that the statements in this document are false and they are applying the code incorrectly.
If you would like to receive this document please contact me by private message by using the "start conversation" link in my profile until I can figure a way to post this more publicly.
 
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paulengr

Senior Member
I recently received a tech update bulletin from Hayward Pool Products that specifically says that they "do not require or recommend GFCI breakers on their heat pumps" which operate at 240v. I can't post the link because it requires you to have a dealer login and I cant see how to attach a PDF file here, but will gladly email you a copy because I fell this needs attention. I am not a licensed electrician but have a working knowledge of these heaters and several times when trying to diagnose an intermittent breaker trip, have been suggested by their in-house technicians to replace the GFCI breaker with a standard breaker (which I refuse to do). I forwarded the bulletin to my local inspector, which he forwarded to several others. They all agree that the statements in this document are false and they are applying the code incorrectly.
If you would like to receive this document please contact me by private message by using the "start conversation" link in my profile until I can figure a way to post this more publicly.

Hit the print screen button then you can bypass the paywall and just upload the image.
 

suemarkp

Senior Member
Location
Kent, WA
Occupation
Retired Engineer
2020 code added outdoor outlets, up to 50A and 120V to ground, as a GFCI requirement if this is at a dwelling. Note it says outlet and not receptacle. The intent was to cover HVAC air conditioners which are hard wired, but it will cover other things.
 

retirede

Senior Member
Location
Illinois
2020 code added outdoor outlets, up to 50A and 120V to ground, as a GFCI requirement if this is at a dwelling. Note it says outlet and not receptacle. The intent was to cover HVAC air conditioners which are hard wired, but it will cover other things.

That’s true. The heat pump will necessarily be outdoors, and thus now require GFCI.
A conventional electric pool heater installed inside will not.
 

don_resqcapt19

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Illinois
Occupation
retired electrician
Apparently they must think the pool heater is supplied by a 240 volt ungrounded system, or corner ground system, as all other 240 volt systems will be less than 150 volts to ground.
 

texie

Senior Member
Location
Fort Collins, Colorado
Occupation
Electrician, Contractor, Inspector
Apparently they must think the pool heater is supplied by a 240 volt ungrounded system, or corner ground system, as all other 240 volt systems will be less than 150 volts to ground.
Kind of sad that one of the largest manufacturers of pool equipment is this misinformed. In addition the author does not seem to know about 21.8(F) in the 2020 edition. They should be called out on this.
 

Jamie Lynn

Member
Location
Kentucky
Occupation
Pool Tech
Pumps (as in circulating water), yes GFCI required.

A heat pump is a heater (and possibly a chiller). As I recall, GFCI is only required for gas pool heaters, not electric-powered.
I can also send the installation instructions, but they are wired with L1, L2, G. #6 or 8 AWG. and draw 17-22 amps. Being that the pool circulating pump is wired similarly (except with 14-12 awg) how can they recommend not to protect the higher amp heat pumps!
In response to "texie" that is why I am doing this. If they are wrong, they probably wont listen to just me. And so many builders and excavators now are building their own inground pools and know very little about GFCI and even less about bonding. I've learned a lot from Mike Holt's discussion forums, especially the segments where a "panel" discusses WHY certain codes are adjusted and HOW to interpret the language.
So I very much appreciate and value the experience ones can share on this subject.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
I can also send the installation instructions, but they are wired with L1, L2, G. #6 or 8 AWG. and draw 17-22 amps. Being that the pool circulating pump is wired similarly (except with 14-12 awg) how can they recommend not to protect the higher amp heat pumps!
In response to "texie" that is why I am doing this. If they are wrong, they probably wont listen to just me. And so many builders and excavators now are building their own inground pools and know very little about GFCI and even less about bonding. I've learned a lot from Mike Holt's discussion forums, especially the segments where a "panel" discusses WHY certain codes are adjusted and HOW to interpret the language.
So I very much appreciate and value the experience ones can share on this subject.
How much it draws in normal operation doesn't really matter. From some posts here sounds like there is problems with GFCI trips in 2020 applications with hermetic compressor units, they apparently did not need to meet low enough acceptable leakage standards and now they don't play well with GFCI's where they are required.
 

retirede

Senior Member
Location
Illinois
Kind of sad that one of the largest manufacturers of pool equipment is this misinformed. In addition the author does not seem to know about 21.8(F) in the 2020 edition. They should be called out on this.

Most likely they simply haven’t caught up with 2020 NEC requirements. I wonder if this specific piece of equipment predates 2020?
 

augie47

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Tennessee
Occupation
State Electrical Inspector (Retired)
2020 code added outdoor outlets, up to 50A and 120V to ground, as a GFCI requirement if this is at a dwelling. Note it says outlet and not receptacle. The intent was to cover HVAC air conditioners which are hard wired, but it will cover other things.
I understand "outlet" and it may be a loophole, but assume I supply a HVAC condenser wiring straight from a breaker in an outside meter combo (in sight from the unit)... No outlet, no GFCI, correct ??
 

wwhitney

Senior Member
Location
Berkeley, CA
Occupation
Retired
There's always an outlet for utilization equipment, it would be where the premises wiring attaches to the equipment wiring, so in the wiring compartment of the condenser.

Cheers, Wayne
 

Dennis Alwon

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Chapel Hill, NC
Occupation
Retired Electrical Contractor
The fact remains that a heat pump wired before the 2020 NEC does not require gfci protection but if Hayward is building heat pumps that won't work with gfci then that is an issue.

This is similar to the pool pump company that states only siemens gfci will work with their pumps.
 

texie

Senior Member
Location
Fort Collins, Colorado
Occupation
Electrician, Contractor, Inspector
Most likely they simply haven’t caught up with 2020 NEC requirements. I wonder if this specific piece of equipment predates 2020?
One would think that the manufacturer would be aware of one of the biggest hot button issues with 210.8(F) that is reeking havoc in the trade. And as Don pointed out, the last paragraph in the document is incorrect and shows a lack of understanding the code.
 

LarryFine

Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
Location
Henrico County, VA
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
One would think that the manufacturer would be aware of one of the biggest hot button issues with 210.8(F) that is reeking havoc in the trade.
It's actually "wreaking" havoc. ~ Courtesy of your local Grammar Police. :giggle:
 
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