Health Care 517.13 A & B

[he1029]

Hi all
in a health care facility (surgical center)
we used hospital grade BX (2 grounding paths)
and we terminated the green wire of the bx to the 1900 metal box
and we used hospital grade self grounding outlets within ¼" of the face of the box
the inspector is telling us that we have to connect the green wire to the outlet and not to the box no matter if we're using self grounding outlets
however i don't think that he is right since the outlet is self grounding what difference does it make if it is connected to the outlet or to the box?
this is not a mulberry cover
it is a regular installed dressed box with a self grounding outlet and face plate

Let me know your thoughts

Thanks all

 

[roger]

The inspector is incorrect, show him the wording of (B)

(B) Insulated Equipment Grounding Conductor.
(1) General.
The following shall be directly connected to
an insulated copper equipment groundin g conductor that is
installed with the branch circuit conductors in the wiring methods
as provided in 517.13(A).


(1) The grounding terminals of all receptacles.
(2) Metal boxes and enclosures containing receptacles.
(3) All non–current-carrying conductive surfaces of fixed
electrical equipment likely to become energized that are
subject to personal contact, operating at over 100 volts.

Roger

 

[david]

Hi all
in a health care facility (surgical center)
we used hospital grade BX (2 grounding paths)
and we terminated the green wire of the bx to the 1900 metal box
and we used hospital grade self grounding outlets within ¼" of the face of the box
the inspector is telling us that we have to connect the green wire to the outlet and not to the box no matter if we're using self grounding outlets
however i don't think that he is right since the outlet is self grounding what difference does it make if it is connected to the outlet or to the box?
this is not a mulberry cover
it is a regular installed dressed box with a self grounding outlet and face plate

Let me know your thoughts

Thanks all

the inspector is telling us that we have to connect the green wire to the outlet and not to the box no matter if we're using self grounding outlets

Are you sure about the above statement. Is he telling you to connect the green insulated ground to the box and bond to the REC. as well

 

[steve66]

The inspector is incorrect, show him the wording of (B)

Roger

Roger:

I have to ask because I really don't have a clue, but doesn't #1: "The grounding terminal of all receptacles." mean the inspector is right?

To me that means that the EGC must be landed directly on the receptacle.

There is an exception that basically says "an insulated equipment bonding jumper may be used to connect the box and receptacle". So its OK to land the ground on the box, and run an insulated wire from the box to the receptacle. But I'm not sure if a self grounding receptacle would count as an "insulated equipment bonding jumper" the same way a wire would.

 

[MasterTheNEC]

Roger:

I have to ask because I really don't have a clue, but doesn't #1: "The grounding terminal of all receptacles." mean the inspector is right?

To me that means that the EGC must be landed directly on the receptacle.

There is an exception that basically says "an insulated equipment bonding jumper may be used to connect the box and receptacle". So its OK to land the ground on the box, and run an insulated wire from the box to the receptacle. But I'm not sure if a self grounding receptacle would count as an "insulated equipment bonding jumper" the same way a wire would.

BINGO. Remembering the statements in Section 90.3.....the demands of 250.146(B) can be amended by the demands of 517.13(B).

 

[roger]

Roger:

I have to ask because I really don't have a clue, but doesn't #1: "The grounding terminal of all receptacles." mean the inspector is right?

To me that means that the EGC must be landed directly on the receptacle.

There is an exception that basically says "an insulated equipment bonding jumper may be used to connect the box and receptacle". So its OK to land the ground on the box, and run an insulated wire from the box to the receptacle. But I'm not sure if a self grounding receptacle would count as an "insulated equipment bonding jumper" the same way a wire would.

Steve, the way I read the OP is that the inspector is saying the insulated EGC can not connect to the box at all.

the inspector is telling us that we have to connect the green wire to the outlet and not to the box no matter if we're using self grounding outlets

This makes me think he is thinking about an Isolated ground type installation

Roger

 

[MasterTheNEC]

(B) Insulated Equipment Grounding Conductors and Insulated
Equipment Bonding Jumpers.
(1) General. The following shall be directly connected to an
insulated copper equipment grounding conductor that is
clearly identified along its entire length by green insulation
and installed with the branch circuit conductors in the wiring
methods as provided in 517.13(A):
(1) The grounding terminals of all receptacles other than
isolated ground receptacles
(2) Metal outlet boxes, metal device boxes, or metal enclosures
(3) All non–current-carrying conductive surfaces of fixed
electrical equipment likely to become energized that are
subject to personal contact, operating at over 100 volts

I did not read "Isolated" into the question. However, it could be the thinking of the AHJ....set them on the right path with clarity ! Also keeping in mind that the "other than isolated ground receptacles" was newly added in the 2017 NEC.

 

[he1029]

The insulated grounding wire iscurrently connected to the 1900 metal box
And No it's not an isolated grounding situation
We are using self grounding receptacles
And the inspector is asking me to install the insulated grounding wire to the box and then jump it from the box continuously on to the receptacle


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[jumper]

The insulated grounding wire iscurrently connected to the 1900 metal box
And No it's not an isolated grounding situation
We are using self grounding receptacles
And the inspector is asking me to install the insulated grounding wire to the box and then jump it from the box continuously on to the receptacle


Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

Is not the whole point of double grounding? The box and the wire both ground the receptacle.

 

[roger]

And the inspector is asking me to install the insulated grounding wire to the box and then jump it from the box continuously on to the receptacle

In that case there is nothing wrong, the inspector is correct.

Roger

 

[he1029]

Is not the whole point of double grounding? The box and the wire both ground the receptacle.

Yes and no
I spoke to one of the code committee guys this morning
And he told me the reason for having two grounds and a healthcare facility is because when they first introduced the GFI in 1970s all the doctors were complaining that this will trip on them during the surgery or any major procedure
That's when the code panel wanted to protect the patient and they said if no gfi's then at least give us the two grounds to make sure there's always an effective current grounding path

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[roger]

Yes and no
I spoke to one of the code committee guys this morning
And he told me the reason for having two grounds and a healthcare facility is because when they first introduced the GFI in 1970s all the doctors were complaining that this will trip on them during the surgery or any major procedure
That's when the code panel wanted to protect the patient and they said if no gfi's then at least give us the two grounds to make sure there's always an effective current grounding path

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

I don't know where this person came up with that but in the 70's Isolation Power Systems were pretty much used in all US hospitals because of flammable anesthesia. In those days we had to bond everything in OR's and the like including window frames, door frames, metal drain flanges, etc.... As flammable anesthesia went away Isolated Systems were still used with there associated LIM's for patient protection and then as time moved on some opted to go with GFCI in invasive procedure areas, none of the above changed any grounding requirements.

In the 1971 NEC article 517-51(b) started going into more detailed grounding requirements than previous cycles.

Roger