romex jockey
Senior Member
- Location
- Vermont
- Occupation
- electrician
Heating uninsulated shop
- Thread starter Njonescontracting
- Start date
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drcampbell
Senior Member
- Location
- The Motor City, Michigan USA
- Occupation
- Registered Professional Engineer
If you're not going to insulate, you'll need a monumental amount of heat.
If you're going to store water-based paint there, you'll need to assure that the temperature remains above freezing all winter long.
If you're going to store combustibles there, you need to think about fire prevention.
I highly recommend stone wool insulation. https://www.rockwool.com/north-america/
Much easier to handle than fiberglass batts, cuts easily with an electric carving knife and holds its shape, stays in place by itself when installing it in a roof, and usually insulates much better than fiberglass. If you follow up with a layer of radiant barrier on the inside, it will reflect radiant heat back inside.
(also known as roofing foil, builder's foil, et al.)
If you're going to store water-based paint there, you'll need to assure that the temperature remains above freezing all winter long.
If you're going to store combustibles there, you need to think about fire prevention.
I highly recommend stone wool insulation. https://www.rockwool.com/north-america/
Much easier to handle than fiberglass batts, cuts easily with an electric carving knife and holds its shape, stays in place by itself when installing it in a roof, and usually insulates much better than fiberglass. If you follow up with a layer of radiant barrier on the inside, it will reflect radiant heat back inside.
(also known as roofing foil, builder's foil, et al.)
Fred B
Senior Member
- Location
- Upstate, NY
- Occupation
- Electrician
Rockwool can also comes as fire rated. Used it often around woodstove pipe penetration, and for fire stop between occupancies. Seen this demonstration from a rockwool representative.
drcampbell
Senior Member
- Location
- The Motor City, Michigan USA
- Occupation
- Registered Professional Engineer
Yup, highly recommended.
Stone wool itself is inherently fireproof; it began life as steel-mill slag. The batts become fireproof when a noncombustible binder is used.
petersonra
Senior Member
- Location
- Northern illinois
- Occupation
- engineer
I'd be inclined to run a gas line out to the garage and get a natural gas garage heater. You can get a 100,000 BTU/hr heater for about $1000.
kwired
Electron manager
- Location
- NE Nebraska
Don't mess with the sheep that bear this wool, they are mean and naturally pretty tough. Hate to be the one that has to shear them to harvest that wool.
junkhound
Senior Member
- Location
- Renton, WA
- Occupation
- EE, power electronics specialty
St Louis?
What do you do in the summer, just sweat?
I'd insulate and install inverter type minisplit, 15 Amp.
Build enclosed lean to on one wall and insulate that for added storage and don't need to insulate that wall then.
What do you do in the summer, just sweat?
I'd insulate and install inverter type minisplit, 15 Amp.
Build enclosed lean to on one wall and insulate that for added storage and don't need to insulate that wall then.
LarryFine
Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
- Location
- Henrico County, VA
- Occupation
- Electrical Contractor
Njonescontracting
Member
- Location
- Saint Louis, MO
- Occupation
- Electrical Contractor
Close doors. Go on vacation till it warms up.
Then go on vacation again.
Sounds good to me.
Winter isn't usually this bad...we have about 9 inches of snow right now. And current temp is -4 with a windchill of -19...Summer we just sweat haha. I do like minisplit systems but I usually just have a few fans going and the overhead door open...works good enough.
winnie
Senior Member
- Location
- Springfield, MA, USA
- Occupation
- Electric motor research
Insulation can also go on the outside of the shell if you want the exposed studs and joists .
Jon
Jon
drcampbell
Senior Member
- Location
- The Motor City, Michigan USA
- Occupation
- Registered Professional Engineer
Wind chill is irrelevant inside a building and essentially irrelevant to inanimate objects.
Then it would be "outsulation", right?
K8MHZ
Senior Member
- Occupation
- Electrician
That is not true. Wind chill affects anything that is warmer than it's surroundings. Otherwise, we wouldn't need fans for automotive radiators and blowing on hot food wouldn't ever cool it off.
Wind does, but wind chill is misleading. If it is 34F outside with a 20F wind chill, you don't need to worry about pipes freezing. Wind helps move heat faster, but doesn't change the temp below ambient unless there is something evaporating. I hate it when the TV weather map is showing nothing but wind chill temperatures. Totally irrelevant to me if I don't know how windy it is. I'd rather see the true temp and wind speed.
drcampbell
Senior Member
- Location
- The Motor City, Michigan USA
- Occupation
- Registered Professional Engineer
LarryFine
Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
- Location
- Henrico County, VA
- Occupation
- Electrical Contractor
Not wind chill, but certainly wind. A pressure difference across a building causes infiltration.
And outfiltration.
petersonra
Senior Member
- Location
- Northern illinois
- Occupation
- engineer
That is more or less true, given the common definition of wind chill. However it is also true that higher wind speeds have a significant effect on how much heat passes through a wall even if there is no air infiltration. Even a mild wind can cause a lot more heat loss through an exposed surface.
Njonescontracting
Member
- Location
- Saint Louis, MO
- Occupation
- Electrical Contractor
Let's not forget. The structure is not insulated. The garage door is. However there are voids and back in the 60s they didn't have the products we have now to prevent all of the issues you guys stayed above. Hell aluminum wire was a good idea then. Nothing is sealed perfectly. Just want to keep myself and material warm on frigid days. Less than a month a year.
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Sent from my SM-G981U using Tapatalk
ptonsparky
Tom
- Occupation
- EC - retired
Best way is stay in the house, do paper work, or chase your significant around the kitchen table. Go back to the shop when it’s warmer or you run out of breath.
drcampbell
Senior Member
- Location
- The Motor City, Michigan USA
- Occupation
- Registered Professional Engineer
Much as I hate to deliver the bad news, there's just no simple, easy safe & cheap way to do it. Woolies?
Modine Hot Dawg, 20 ft x 25 ft x 50 btus / sf is 25,000 btus. I would not go over that number. Even the smaller one running all the time (it may for the space you describe) will cost you more in propane than any quantity of insulation you could buy. Utility methane for the cost you could just set it and forget it, but propane is one of the expensive fuels (usually). At least the Hot Dawg runs on a thermosat.
So the propane will cost you more than the insulation, but I don't know if it is an order of magnitude more. If you want to burn in fuel cost, ten times the cost of insulating, you would have to insulate first (I would advise).
Has to combine with a ceiling fan. If there is no ceiling fan, you will only heat the top three feet of roof and all the cold air supply for air leakage will settle at the floor. The floors will always be cold no matter how much propane you burn. It is doable with a ceiling fan.
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