Rewire
Senior Member
- Location
- Lake of the Ozarks
electricmanscott said:Rewire, you should just mind your business and stop with the attacks.
Hello everyone
- Thread starter dwellselectric
- Start date
- Status
dwellselectric
Inactive, Email Never Verified
- Location
- Cape Cod, Massachusetts
I can tell my question wont find an answer here with all this anger but thanks anyways
L
Lxnxjxhx
Guest
Believe it or not, this is the "Tragedy of the Commons" from Game Theory.
There is no solution.
Here's the scene:
several farmers have their sheep graze the grass (charge the customers) in a common area (neighborhood, town, city, state, country). It is in the interest of the group to have all their sheep graze moderately, so the area doesn't become stripped. But it is in the interest of each farmer to have his sheep "pig out".
Another example:
a gunman holds many hostages. He has only six shots.
It is in the interest of the group to rush him, but it is not in the interest of the people in the front of the charge. There have been very few instances where the group charged the gunman.
#3:
It's in the interest of society that companies don't pollute, but each company does not want to pay the cost of cleanup equipment.
This gets played out all over the world, every single day.
Don't blame me, blame God; She did it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tragedy_of_the_commons
There is no solution.
Here's the scene:
several farmers have their sheep graze the grass (charge the customers) in a common area (neighborhood, town, city, state, country). It is in the interest of the group to have all their sheep graze moderately, so the area doesn't become stripped. But it is in the interest of each farmer to have his sheep "pig out".
Another example:
a gunman holds many hostages. He has only six shots.
It is in the interest of the group to rush him, but it is not in the interest of the people in the front of the charge. There have been very few instances where the group charged the gunman.
#3:
It's in the interest of society that companies don't pollute, but each company does not want to pay the cost of cleanup equipment.
This gets played out all over the world, every single day.
Don't blame me, blame God; She did it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tragedy_of_the_commons
dSilanskas,
To answer your original question:
Don't fall into the $ per square foot trap. . It makes bidding a piece of cake but you lose your shirt on some jobs and lose the bid for others because you're too high. . Price it out per opening with separate prices for recessed cans and wiring/outlets larger than 12gauge. . Put in a number for the service, higher for a larger amp option. . If they want a square footage number, work up your price by the opening and divide it by the square foot afterward. . Make sure you're clear to the customer that the square foot number only applies to that particular bid.
David
To answer your original question:
Don't fall into the $ per square foot trap. . It makes bidding a piece of cake but you lose your shirt on some jobs and lose the bid for others because you're too high. . Price it out per opening with separate prices for recessed cans and wiring/outlets larger than 12gauge. . Put in a number for the service, higher for a larger amp option. . If they want a square footage number, work up your price by the opening and divide it by the square foot afterward. . Make sure you're clear to the customer that the square foot number only applies to that particular bid.
David
growler
Senior Member
- Location
- Atlanta,GA
dSilanskas said:The side job was wiring a house and they where going to buy all the stock needed which is great and all but they just wanted me to put a bid on labor to wire the house. Hmm kinda hard I dont know how I would go about doing this because to be totally honest I never had a side job of wiring a house before.
First off there is no set price for side work, if they get other side workers to bid the job then the bids will be all over the place.
If your boss is cool with this and I'm willing to take your word that he is then you should consult with your boss on what to charge. It could even be worth a small fee ($200 if you get the job ) to have your boss bid the job ( give ideas on what would be normal price ) for you as a consultant.
The reason I say this is because he will have a better idea of what to charge than anyone on this forum. He's in the area and will have and idea of what you should and could get.
If you don't want to charge full price because these are friends of yours then at least you would know what the job would normally go for.
dwellselectric
Inactive, Email Never Verified
- Location
- Cape Cod, Massachusetts
dnem thank you so much that was all i was looking for
Rewire
Senior Member
- Location
- Lake of the Ozarks
dnem said:
dSilanskas said:Hey everyone hope your all having a great day! I had a odd request and didn't know if you guys could please give me some input. Well someone called me about doing a side job. The side job was wiring a house and they where going to buy all the stock needed which is great and all but they just wanted me to put a bid on labor to wire the house. Hmm kinda hard I dont know how I would go about doing this because to be totally honest I never had a side job of wiring a house before. I need to touch base with them to get the plans but my question is how would you guys do this? I am sorry I just never had to bid before for a side job of this size.
If your boss is cool with you doing this side job why not have him help you with the estimate and bid?dSilanskas said:
You could show him the prints and he could help you estimate and bid it.
Then you could see how he does it. Unless he doesn't know how to estimate and bid it either.
It is simple math.
A) How many hours/days will it take to do the job?
B) How much do you want to charge per hour?
A x B = your bid.
If you are asking how long it will take, we will need at least the sq footage.
PS. I could not have survived my early years without side jobs.
A) How many hours/days will it take to do the job?
B) How much do you want to charge per hour?
A x B = your bid.
If you are asking how long it will take, we will need at least the sq footage.
PS. I could not have survived my early years without side jobs.
dSilanskas said:Hey everyone hope your all having a great day! I had a odd request and didn't know if you guys could please give me some input. Well someone called me about doing a side job. The side job was wiring a house and they where going to buy all the stock needed which is great and all but they just wanted me to put a bid on labor to wire the house. Hmm kinda hard I dont know how I would go about doing this because to be totally honest I never had a side job of wiring a house before. I need to touch base with them to get the plans but my question is how would you guys do this? I am sorry I just never had to bid before for a side job of this size.
rewire said:
rewire, the problem with this industry is that guys can't add 2 and 2, let alone complex math problems....
side work affects all of us
dSilanskas said:
so, while i understand that you are legal as a journeyman in MA to work on your own...just remember, you can not have your cake and eat it too...good luck...
bradleyelectric
Senior Member
- Location
- forest hill, md
Rewire said:
No its not, its a job for the service truck.
Rewire
Senior Member
- Location
- Lake of the Ozarks
That should have been "hanging a ceiling fan for your grandma"and only if you are paid in cookiesbradleyelectric said:
SiddMartin
Senior Member
- Location
- PA
Rewire said:
thats funny
I stopped reading the replies after the 2nd page, but if I were you I'd ask your boss how to price it, get him to help you out, and throw him a couple bucks when you get paid.
then everyone's happy.
I worked for myself for a long time, and I guess I don't get all the issues that other people have with work. If you can swing the insurance and licensing, don't let anyone tell you you can't do it. Keep your customers happy, and you will get free referrals and repeat business. (and by happy, that doesn't mean that you cut everyone's price in half, it means you did a great job).
In my humble very idiotic and stupid opinion, all residential work, (other than developments and condo buildings etc) should be classified as side work.
then everyone's happy.
I worked for myself for a long time, and I guess I don't get all the issues that other people have with work. If you can swing the insurance and licensing, don't let anyone tell you you can't do it. Keep your customers happy, and you will get free referrals and repeat business. (and by happy, that doesn't mean that you cut everyone's price in half, it means you did a great job).
In my humble very idiotic and stupid opinion, all residential work, (other than developments and condo buildings etc) should be classified as side work.
I dug up my residential bid sheet from my contractor days.
LV
first doorbell = $
# of additional doorbells x $ = ?
# of garage door openers x $ = ?
# of fireplaces x $ = ?
# of cable +/or phones x $ = ?
Recessed
# of bathroom exhaust fans x $ = ?
# of recessed light/fan combos x $ = ?
# of recessed can lights x $ = ?
# of slanted or eyeball recessed can lights x $ = ?
Dedicated 120v GFCI appliance/utility
# of 35a or less Whirlpools x $ = ?
# of 40a to 60a Whirlpools x $ = ?
all Other 120v electrical openings
# of romex fed openings x $ = ?
# of conduit fed openings x $ = ?
[romex overhead, conduit wall sleave and a steel box and raised cover]
# of smoke detectors x $ = ?
240v appliance/utility
# of 35a or less appliances x $ = ?
# of 40a to 60a appliances x $ = ?
Service
100 amp = $
150 amp = $
200 amp = $
300 amp = $
400 amp = $
Temp Pole
temp = $
Decide what price you'll plugin for each $
For:
all Other 120v electrical openings
# of romex fed openings x $ =
You'll need the print and a ruler to scale off 2,6,12 for plugs [210.52(A)(2)(1) for 2' + 210.52(A)(1) for the 6'+12'].
Scale the kitchen cabinet sheet for the counter plugs, 1,2,4 [210.52(C)].
The print or a customer walk thru for switch locations and recessed can locations.
Your price per category should go up for changes after the walkthru, especially if you've already started the rough.
Don't force custom or unusual stuff into any general category. . Handle them separately.
This is an idea that you can use as a starting point to customize your own bid sheet. . It helps you not forget stuff and breaks the bid down into manageable categories.
David
LV
first doorbell = $
# of additional doorbells x $ = ?
# of garage door openers x $ = ?
# of fireplaces x $ = ?
# of cable +/or phones x $ = ?
Recessed
# of bathroom exhaust fans x $ = ?
# of recessed light/fan combos x $ = ?
# of recessed can lights x $ = ?
# of slanted or eyeball recessed can lights x $ = ?
Dedicated 120v GFCI appliance/utility
# of 35a or less Whirlpools x $ = ?
# of 40a to 60a Whirlpools x $ = ?
all Other 120v electrical openings
# of romex fed openings x $ = ?
# of conduit fed openings x $ = ?
[romex overhead, conduit wall sleave and a steel box and raised cover]
# of smoke detectors x $ = ?
240v appliance/utility
# of 35a or less appliances x $ = ?
# of 40a to 60a appliances x $ = ?
Service
100 amp = $
150 amp = $
200 amp = $
300 amp = $
400 amp = $
Temp Pole
temp = $
Decide what price you'll plugin for each $
For:
all Other 120v electrical openings
# of romex fed openings x $ =
You'll need the print and a ruler to scale off 2,6,12 for plugs [210.52(A)(2)(1) for 2' + 210.52(A)(1) for the 6'+12'].
Scale the kitchen cabinet sheet for the counter plugs, 1,2,4 [210.52(C)].
The print or a customer walk thru for switch locations and recessed can locations.
Your price per category should go up for changes after the walkthru, especially if you've already started the rough.
Don't force custom or unusual stuff into any general category. . Handle them separately.
This is an idea that you can use as a starting point to customize your own bid sheet. . It helps you not forget stuff and breaks the bid down into manageable categories.
David
mivey
Senior Member
I agree with the other posts that say to get your boss to help you. He knows he won't live forever and new people must learn the trade as well. He sounds like a nice guy.
Also, as a sanity check, you could get one of the estimating guides (like RS Means) that lists the labor hours for a lot of what you will do. You can use these times, along with what you want to make per hour, to compare with your boss's estimate. See if he will talk with you about the differences.
As your boss knows, and as you will learn, the times listed in these books are by no means (no pun intended) the gospel. Keep up with the time you spend. At the end, sit down with your boss and discuss the differences in his estimate, what you got from the estimating guide, and your actual time. He seems like he might be willing to teach.
Also, as a sanity check, you could get one of the estimating guides (like RS Means) that lists the labor hours for a lot of what you will do. You can use these times, along with what you want to make per hour, to compare with your boss's estimate. See if he will talk with you about the differences.
As your boss knows, and as you will learn, the times listed in these books are by no means (no pun intended) the gospel. Keep up with the time you spend. At the end, sit down with your boss and discuss the differences in his estimate, what you got from the estimating guide, and your actual time. He seems like he might be willing to teach.
mivey said:
Sometimes there's other reasons for the boss to make that move, other than being old or being a nice guy. . When I first got into business I got into a conversation with a fellow contractor while we both were waiting at a supply house. . We "hit it off", as the saying goes. . In a short time we were subbing to each other as our individual companies work load varied up and down. . It was a great mutual arrangement until he closed up.
After that I had an employee and job foreman that was very competent electrician but he would show up late for work 2 to 3 times a week up to an hour and a half late. . And it was progressively getting worse. . He worked hard and would stay for 8 hours but he was commonly MIA to start the day. . All attempts to straighten him out failed. . His days as my employee had reached the end.
My final solution was to offer to sub contract any overflow work out to him. . I would help him with bidding including jobs that didn't come from me. . I even offered to provide him with some man power that I would cover on my payroll and subtract from what I owed him for the subbed work.
He was too afraid to leave a guaranteed weekly pay check and didn't take the deal. . We shook hands and said goodbye. . He got another job elsewhere.
Life works out better when you look at a persons ambition as a possibility instead of a threat. . If they're willing to handle themselves ethically, they can be a resource and even a friend instead of an enemy.
David
If HOs knew how much exposure they have doing this sort of deal, they wouldn't do it.
The guy next door to me hired a kid from the neighborhood to mow his lawn, who then proceeded to trip over a garden hose and break his wrist. His parents and their layer worked his insurance over until it was gone then went after him on a work comp claim.
The scary part is, this same kid used to mow my lawn too.
The guy next door to me hired a kid from the neighborhood to mow his lawn, who then proceeded to trip over a garden hose and break his wrist. His parents and their layer worked his insurance over until it was gone then went after him on a work comp claim.
The scary part is, this same kid used to mow my lawn too.
macmikeman
Senior Member
- Location
- Planet macmikeman
mivey said:
What??? Use RS Means for bidding a residential job??? If I did that I might turn a profit on the job. The builders would never stand for that. :grin:
- Status