Help With a GFCI Tripping Problem

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Little Bill said:
Now you've stolen my joy/hope.:( I know a GFCI doesn't need a ground to operate, I just thought it might be sensing an imbalance from the other circuit coming through the bonded EGC/neutrals.
I think along with replacing the GFCI, I will feed the light from the line side of the GFCI like it should have been to start with.
However, if there's a problem somewhere in the other circuit, I don't want to leave it unresolved. Back to the drawing board Monday!:rant:
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Best thing to do is take the fixture down and break all the splices, see if the problem still exists, and work your way backwards till you can make the problem exist again, this will put you in the right direction of where to start looking for the problem... don't be surprised to find a buried box somewhere. :)
 
stickboy1375 said:
Best thing to do is take the fixture down and break all the splices, see if the problem still exists, and work your way backwards till you can make the problem exist again, this will put you in the right direction of where to start looking for the problem... don't be surprised to find a buried box somewhere. :)
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This is a house that is being wired after it burnt and was rebuilt. Someone else did the rough (and boy was it rough) and I got the privilege of finishing it. He left a mess. No home runs marked, other than a few ground splices, nothing made up in the boxes, or marked etc. Funny you should say "buried box", because when trying to identify what was run, I found 3 buried boxes already, 2 of the smokes and 1 receptacle. None of these were made up, so other than causing an open circuit, nothing causing tripping problems.
I'm going to start fresh tomorrow and see what I can find. This just isn't making sense to me though.
 
Little Bill said:
This is a house that is being wired after it burnt and was rebuilt. Someone else did the rough (and boy was it rough) and I got the privilege of finishing it. He left a mess. No home runs marked, other than a few ground splices, nothing made up in the boxes, or marked etc. Funny you should say "buried box", because when trying to identify what was run, I found 3 buried boxes already, 2 of the smokes and 1 receptacle. None of these were made up, so other than causing an open circuit, nothing causing tripping problems.
I'm going to start fresh tomorrow and see what I can find. This just isn't making sense to me though.
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Im really thinking someone miss spliced a neutral, just my 2cents....
 
hurk27 said:
nope GFCI's do not need a ground or the neutral bonded to ground to function, and if there was a problem with using a generator then we would have problems any time we back a house up with a generator.

if the GFCI trips as soon as you re-set it, then there is a connection from the load side neutral to another neutral or something grounded, a staple hammered in to tight? romex connector tightened to tight? who knows but you need to test the load side neutral and see it you get continuity to ground with the GFCI tripped, if you do remove connections till you find where it is making contact.
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True, the gfci itself does not need a ground to operate, but the neutral does have to be bonded somewhere on the line side, or there will be no alternate path for the voltage to take.
 
Little Bill did state that the GFCI holds until he turns the circuit on for the kitchen lights,
which is a different circuit
 
Little Bill said:
No, it is an outside GFCI receptacle. After a night's sleep and your's and hillbilly's post, I think I might know what the problem is. I won't actually be there until tomorrow to verify, but I think all the EGCs are tied together in the 2-gang box that houses the switch to the porch light and living room fan/light. Since the panel is the main (service) the EGCs and neutrals are bonded. When both the GFCI circuit and the living room circuit are on together, I believe the GFCI may be sensing an imbalance coming through the neutral/EGC bond at the panel from the other circuit.
Does this sound like a possibility?
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That would do it, neutral and gnd touching anywhere downline of the gfci.
 
Stickboy, I would agree it sounds like a mis-spliced neutral, but the GFCI is only about 5' from the switch for the light. I only have the home run neutral, then the load side neutral, then the light neutral, that's it. The odd thing is the GFCI holds and powers the porch light as long as the living room circuit is off, or maybe just the switch that works the inside fan/light is off. These are 2 separate circuits. The only thing they have in common is switch legs for both circuits are in the same 2-gang box. I ask the owner to take the fan down so I could start checking there in the morning.

Something else I just remembered trying. I took both switch legs off the two switches and tied each leg together and both circuits worked and the GFCI didn't trip. The switches are the single gang over/under type, and I don't really like those but that's what was provided. I replaced the switch and powered the circuits back up and the GFCI tripped. So it wasn't the switch. I also found I was unable to reset the GFCI as long as the other circuit was on and I think switch to the other circuit.
Also, the switch box is metal but I don't have it bonded since the switch plate is plastic. I also taped around the switch to make sure none of the screws/contacts touched the box.
This is just more food for thought!
 
mjf said:
Break the tab off of the over under switch. It's 2 seperate circuits.
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Would you consider a manly hug for that answer?:D

You see what working tired will get you? Also, not that I shouldn't have looked, but I identified all the wires and made up the boxes and the owner was putting in the devices. I didn't even think about whether tab was broken out or not. Now it makes sense as to why it worked with just the switch legs tied together. I sure hope that's what was tripping the GFCI.

Thank You-Thank You and Thanks!!!!!
 
jumper said:
I thought Hurk had nailed it till I just saw this.

Are you powering the circuits off a single 120V supply?

Ps. you still bond that metal box.
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No, as mentioned, it is two separate circuits. Not good with the tab in place.

I was thinking (my problem, I do too much) if a plastic plate was used you didn't have to bond but I guess you're correct.
 
mjf said:
Break the tab off of the over under switch. It's 2 seperate circuits.
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Little Bill said:
Would you consider a manly hug for that answer?:D

You see what working tired will get you? Also, not that I shouldn't have looked, but I identified all the wires and made up the boxes and the owner was putting in the devices. I didn't even think about whether tab was broken out or not. Now it makes sense as to why it worked with just the switch legs tied together. I sure hope that's what was tripping the GFCI.

Thank You-Thank You and Thanks!!!!!
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Where did the tandem switch come in at? I reread the post several times, and did not pick that up, I assumed it was two separate switches! :)
 
hillbilly1 said:
Where did the tandem switch come in at? I reread the post several times, and did not pick that up, I assumed it was two separate switches! :)
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Just one of those minor details that I left out.:happysad: Actually, when I posted the OP, I was tired and frustrated and didn't even think about what type of switch I had. I just (tonight) remembered by-passing the switches and everything worked. I assumed bad switch and replaced it, then it tripped again. That's about the time I said enough for today and left.
 
Little Bill said:
Just one of those minor details that I left out.:happysad: Actually, when I posted the OP, I was tired and frustrated and didn't even think about what type of switch I had. I just (tonight) remembered by-passing the switches and everything worked. I assumed bad switch and replaced it, then it tripped again. That's about the time I said enough for today and left.
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That happens ,you always remember the easy stuff after..:lol:
 
Little Bill said:
Would you consider a manly hug for that answer?:D

You see what working tired will get you? Also, not that I shouldn't have looked, but I identified all the wires and made up the boxes and the owner was putting in the devices. I didn't even think about whether tab was broken out or not. Now it makes sense as to why it worked with just the switch legs tied together. I sure hope that's what was tripping the GFCI.

Thank You-Thank You and Thanks!!!!!
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Ha ha ha ha ha ....manly hug received. Hope the tab breaking solves it. Happy to be able to give a little back to this forum which has helped me so much over the years.

You said owner was putting in devices?? Company owner or homeowner? Methinks homeowner and methinks "yikes". How's that giong to work with liability and warranty? Just be careful.
 
mjf said:
Ha ha ha ha ha ....manly hug received. Hope the tab breaking solves it. Happy to be able to give a little back to this forum which has helped me so much over the years.

You said owner was putting in devices?? Company owner or homeowner? Methinks homeowner and methinks "yikes". How's that giong to work with liability and warranty? Just be careful.
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Yep, the tab was there. I removed it and all is well! I had installed a couple of other tandems but they were on the same circuit so I didn't even think about this one being on 2 circuits. Should have known better but I goofed!

We have an agreement on warranty and liability.

Thanks again!
 
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