kwired
Electron manager
- Location
- NE Nebraska
- Occupation
- EC
But if you have 75K in costs you only made ~25K for the year. Your overhead is a big factor in what you can afford to charge, or not charge.
Help with Master Electrical Price List
- Thread starter Eli1211
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Jerramundi
Senior Member
- Location
- Chicago
- Occupation
- Licensed Residential Electrician
The example you're quoting doesn't invoke overhead costs. It is talking about $65.00/hr as straight take home pay. Why is so hard for people to grasp what I'm saying when I say there's a difference between (1) labor as a measure of time / straight take home pay... and (2) labor as an all inclusive unit.
I acknowledged that $65.00/hr as an all inclusive unit was on the low end.. but only as an all inclusive unit.
kwired
Electron manager
- Location
- NE Nebraska
- Occupation
- EC
If you put together such a master list you will need to make sure you charged enough to cover some the most common "worst case" scenarios" for those common tasks/projects. Even then you will have some where you come out well ahead and some you maybe end up losing money on.
I don't give any firm price on anything without having a look first.
What happens when they want to add a receptacle and figure they are going to pay you price that you figured on running only 50 feet max of cable and through an average basement, then you get there and find out you need to rent lift/scaffolding or something like that to add this receptacle, plus it is a 150 foot cable run?
At very least your list needs to indicate price can change depending on conditions that create more costs.
Materials costs can change on you also so you need to allow enough to at least cover typical changes, and maybe even need to continue to update the list at least biannually.
kwired
Electron manager
- Location
- NE Nebraska
- Occupation
- EC
If 65 is your "take home" portion then your hourly rate you charged the client is even higher to cover mentioned costs.
Jerramundi
Senior Member
- Location
- Chicago
- Occupation
- Licensed Residential Electrician
Yes it is and that's why I'm clarifying the difference between (1) labor as a measure of time / straight take home pay... and (2) labor as an all inclusive unit...
I'm simply trying to give the OP a balanced perspective and suggest that if the GC is covering a good chunk of overhead by paying for materials and administrative costs... that is, allowing him to literally pocket $65/hr or close to it, that I might try negotiating with him because $65/hr take home isn't bad. All I know is that union sparkies around here don't take home more than that and they set the ceiling, but again, that's just take home pay.
The only time I utilize an all inclusive hourly figure is for troubleshooting, other than that I don't have an all inclusive hourly rate.
I have all inclusive opening type costs, which includes my labor rate... but I never estimate/quote a job using an hourly figure unless it's troubleshooting.
I didn’t read all the documents because quite frankly, I think it’s crap.
The first item that caught my eye was “homeruns” with the lengths.
honestly, that would be a stupid way to price something..
A home run in a single story with an attic and a crawl space or unfinished basement would be a lot cheaper than a homerun in a flat roof building on a slab. Unless of course the cost of fixing the walls falls on someone else...
Jerramundi
Senior Member
- Location
- Chicago
- Occupation
- Licensed Residential Electrician
How else would you price a HR? If anything it needs to get MORE specific, not less.. and length is a factor, just not the only one.
Read the document, then read my response again...
kwired
Electron manager
- Location
- NE Nebraska
- Occupation
- EC
There is more overhead cost than just materials you install, there is insurance - liability, vehicles, insurance on loss of equipment, possibly workers comp - utilities, phone(s), internet, equipment maintence or repairs, fuel, office costs, licensing, CEU's, code books, many other potential expenses...
Jerramundi
Senior Member
- Location
- Chicago
- Occupation
- Licensed Residential Electrician
Which is why I said "...if the GC is covering a chunk of overhead by paying for materials and administrative costs..." I'm not ignorant of what goes into overhead expenses, but I don't inflate it for my own gain either. I'm not saying you are doing that, but the costs you listed aren't gonna total anywhere near $75k as you previously suggested unless you're running a fairly large business and it sounds to me like the OP is a one man shop that's just getting going.
I'm simply suggesting to the OP that if he's able to work it out so that he takes home $65/hr that that isn't that bad, especially for someone just getting going.
Jerramundi
Senior Member
- Location
- Chicago
- Occupation
- Licensed Residential Electrician
Small businesses don't get to use the logic of large businesses, or at least I don't.
I know guys that run one man shops and talk up their overhead like their a 100 person corporation just to justify their costs. I worked for one guy that would always mention his mortgage to customers even though he rented an apt. and would always mention workers comp to me, even though I was 1099'd. He thought I didn't notice these things, but I did.
I'm wise to the game and bringing honesty to the streets, word-up homeslice.. lol.
I know guys that run one man shops and talk up their overhead like their a 100 person corporation just to justify their costs. I worked for one guy that would always mention his mortgage to customers even though he rented an apt. and would always mention workers comp to me, even though I was 1099'd. He thought I didn't notice these things, but I did.
I'm wise to the game and bringing honesty to the streets, word-up homeslice.. lol.
Fred B
Senior Member
- Location
- Upstate, NY
- Occupation
- Electrician
You're on point with this. HR, even with min ft is meaningless, are you pulling MC, NM, UF, THHN. You pulling xx/2, xx/3,xx/2/2, each have their own unique criteria that effect time it takes you pull. Not to mention what Hv&Lv already pointed out, post #26.
This guy from the OP my guess is trying to pull one over on an unsuspecting newbie. He's already come back claiming he only pays his other EC's $xx, and a lowball price at that.
I've seen these types before, he gets new guys, inexperienced in business, they'll lowball your fee, then bully you to cut corners, has "his own inspector", and counts on the fact "you need the work" being new. Uses guys up until they get a spine to stand up and not take the abuse anymore, then suddenly they stop calling. (But, I could be wrong)
SOP for most cookie-cutter builders. They only care about their own bottom lines, and not a rodent's rectum about yours. Raise your price $5, and your phone will go silent.
Jerramundi
Senior Member
- Location
- Chicago
- Occupation
- Licensed Residential Electrician
You might know one of my old bosses then, lol. It's cool of you guys to look out for the OP like this. Mad respect.
Wish I woulda known of this forum in my first few years of business and talked to more people like you. That's why I am the way I am, because I've been taken to the cleaners before. You might of saved me quite a few headaches... but apparently I'm cursed to learn everything the hard way, lol.
kwired
Electron manager
- Location
- NE Nebraska
- Occupation
- EC
Can't speak for that specific situation, but is possible for a contractor to be required to provide workers comp for a sub, which technically is what you are if they pay you under 1099 instead of W2.
Can get away with not doing it if there is never a potential claim or if you never do work for any entity that wants insurance certificates as part of the contract arrangements.
Jerramundi
Senior Member
- Location
- Chicago
- Occupation
- Licensed Residential Electrician
The point I'm making with this string of commentary is simply this. To view overhead expenses from two different perspectives: (1) The perspective you advocate for and that I agree with in that they are necessary expenses that need to be accounted for... and (2) the perspective that some are excessive or even used as a tool to manipulate customers into believing excessive costs are justified. Both exist. The goal, IMO, is finding that ethical sweetspot.
I'm just trying to give the OP a balanced perspective in saying (1) be careful, be skeptical.. but (2) maybe don't slam the door shut on $65/hr under circumstances X, Y, and Z.
oldsparky52
Senior Member
- Location
- Wilmington, NC USA
When I worked I had a GC license as well as an EC license. I used subs and I subbed to others. My insurance company would audit me every year and if I didn't have a COI with WC listed then I got a bill for the WC rate on what I paid them. That only happened to me one year (you pay for your education one way or another).
I was a sub S corp and excluded myself from WC coverage (as allowed by law at that time) so I kept my bill low. It was called a ghost policy. The people I subbed to accepted it, without it they would have withheld 10% for WC coverage they would have to provide.
I think now the insurance companies have wised up and are trying to not write ghost policies.
Greg1707
Senior Member
- Location
- Alexandria, VA
- Occupation
- Business owner Electrical contractor
I would never bring up my overhead as a justification of price. Customers need to make their decision based on price, reputation, availability etc. Whether I have high overhead or low overhead should not be on any interest to costumers.
I would argue that in many cases a large contractor's overhead can be lower based on a percentage of sales than a small contractor.
I am a small shop and have certain fixed expenses: insurance, marketing etc. If I double my sales in a good year my overhead is cut in half as a percentage.
I would argue that in many cases a large contractor's overhead can be lower based on a percentage of sales than a small contractor.
I am a small shop and have certain fixed expenses: insurance, marketing etc. If I double my sales in a good year my overhead is cut in half as a percentage.
Jerramundi
Senior Member
- Location
- Chicago
- Occupation
- Licensed Residential Electrician
I would. Lower overhead means I can offer a lower, more affordable and more competitive price point and why not capitalize on that and let the customer know? I can get you savings because I'm living modestly. I intentionally have a home based office for that reason. Otherwise my price would have to go up. I also use VOIP for my business line. Another overhead cost eliminated.
I have had customers criticize me as being "unprofessional" for "not having a real business line." Which is utter bs IMO. As if somehow having an iPhone w/ a major carrier that costs me hundreds of dollars a month makes me "more professional," lmfao. Only super privileged people think that way.
Used to be that a home-based business run out of a garage was admirable. Now it's seen as "unprofessional."
brantmacga
Señor Member
- Location
- Georgia
- Occupation
- Former Child
When I started as an apprentice for a resi EC, he always told me to not ever let a contractor or customer see you doing well, because they’d inevitably start shopping you. In the world I operate in now, if your fleet of vehicles isn’t less than 3 years old, and you don’t have a nice office, everyone starts to wonder what you’re doing wrong.
I’ve got a new office building coming up for a local IT company. It’s a nice place, has a gym, arcade, employee cafeteria, etc. The LV sub I’m using said to me, “this guy is an idiot. I’d buy a lake house and a boat.” I thought that was a bit shortsighted. Maybe it’s this owners dream to have a place like that to work, and to have a place that can help recruit or keep talent, which can lead to even more success for him.
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