Help with sizing parallel service conductors

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mike1061

Senior Member
Location
Chicago
Does that mean there are no AFCI requirements in Chicago?
What we have is everything has to be arc fault with that exception. For pipe. Almost everything we do is pipe. My complaint is, we install a whole branch circuit in emt and have a 3’ whip on one pipe for say, a furnace or a wafer light fixture and now we need a arc fault breaker. 😡
 

mike1061

Senior Member
Location
Chicago
How would you feed them? Would you have to get a meter box with 6 lugs per phase on the load side? Then run 6 conduits to six separate switch boxes?
Say you have the service enter the building on the left, then a ct meter box. 12” for the brick wall, 12” for space to open the door, 30” (or more) for the ct box. You are at 5’ now. To line up 6 separate disconnects would be a violation of the 5’ rule. Even if you enter from the rear of the ct box, it’s going to be hard to stay within 5’. You know what I mean?
 

infinity

Moderator
Staff member
Location
New Jersey
Occupation
Journeyman Electrician
Say you have the service enter the building on the left, then a ct meter box. 12” for the brick wall, 12” for space to open the door, 30” (or more) for the ct box. You are at 5’ now. To line up 6 separate disconnects would be a violation of the 5’ rule. Even if you enter from the rear of the ct box, it’s going to be hard to stay within 5’. You know what I mean?
What's the 5' rule?
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
Say you have the service enter the building on the left, then a ct meter box. 12” for the brick wall, 12” for space to open the door, 30” (or more) for the ct box. You are at 5’ now. To line up 6 separate disconnects would be a violation of the 5’ rule. Even if you enter from the rear of the ct box, it’s going to be hard to stay within 5’. You know what I mean?
5' rule is likely a local rule for you. Guessing it is how far you can enter building with service conductor, you possibly can have those disconnects outside though and not be concerned with the 5 foot rule. Or even put splice/tap box on outside and make multiple entries to the disconnects yet keep each one under 5 feet and it likely is fine.

Also in 2020 is the requirement for an emergency disconnect though on the exterior for one and (I think) two family dwellings.

In past I have had a few homes with all electric and needed fair amount of capacity. Probably didn't need more than a 400 amp main and they all were on CT metering at the transformer as it was only home in the vicinity to supply. Cost less to run 2, 3 even 4 200 amp service feeds to individual 200 amp main breaker panels than to run to a 400 amp disconnect then make taps to the exact same panels. Costs are different today though and would need to re evaluate. PVC for those underground runs is like 6 times higher than it was then.
 
How would you feed them? Would you have to get a meter box with 6 lugs per phase on the load side? Then run 6 conduits to six separate switch boxes?
You could just come off the CT cabinet with multiple sets, or right off the transformer with multiple sets if they do metering at the spades. Other options would be a wireway or a bussed gutter to split to the multiple meters or disconnects. Essentially you will be using 230.40 exception #2
 

mike1061

Senior Member
Location
Chicago
5' rule is likely a local rule for you. Guessing it is how far you can enter building with service conductor, you possibly can have those disconnects outside though and not be concerned with the 5 foot rule. Or even put splice/tap box on outside and make multiple entries to the disconnects yet keep each one under 5 feet and it likely is fine.

Also in 2020 is the requirement for an emergency disconnect though on the exterior for one and (I think) two family dwellings.

In past I have had a few homes with all electric and needed fair amount of capacity. Probably didn't need more than a 400 amp main and they all were on CT metering at the transformer as it was only home in the vicinity to supply. Cost less to run 2, 3 even 4 200 amp service feeds to individual 200 amp main breaker panels than to run to a 400 amp disconnect then make taps to the exact same panels. Costs are different today though and would need to re evaluate. PVC for those underground runs is like 6 times higher than it was then.
That is the 5' rule. Though I thought it was national too. We can not have the disconnects outside. I don't know why, maybe because people would mess with it. Almost everything thing here is overhead.
Prices? I just last night looked at home depot and 3/0 is over $2,000 a roll.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
That is the 5' rule. Though I thought it was national too. We can not have the disconnects outside. I don't know why, maybe because people would mess with it. Almost everything thing here is overhead.
Prices? I just last night looked at home depot and 3/0 is over $2,000 a roll.
Yet some places the meter, main, and all the branch breakers are typically in an all in one unit on the outside - particularly the west coast.

Little bit of a mix here but most the time the service disconnect and branch devices are typically inside, and usually in a basement location if there is a basement.

NEC has no specific rule on how far service conductors enter a building, just says the disconnect need be nearest point of entry or very similar and that leaves it wide open for interpretation. Many AHJ's however do set some sort of limit, 3 feet and 5 feet seem to be pretty common limits though.
 

mike1061

Senior Member
Location
Chicago
I highly doubt that, who says? 2020 actually requires an outdoor disconnect on dwellings (but can be called an emergency disconnect and not a service disconnect).
This is Chicago. I know this, but no I don’t know where it is in the book. I’ve worked here all my life. I will try to find it when I have a minute. I know that the NEC 2020 requires it. Ours is 17 modified
Thanks
Mike
 

mike1061

Senior Member
Location
Chicago
Yet some places the meter, main, and all the branch breakers are typically in an all in one unit on the outside - particularly the west coast.
The suburbs around here ha
Little bit of a mix here but most the time the service disconnect and branch devices are typically inside, and usually in a basement location if there is a basement.
Here too. It’s 50/50 if there on the first floor. We can even get an exception two locate one on the second floor. The times I did that, it was for two flats.
NEC has no specific rule on how far service conductors enter a building, just says the disconnect need be nearest point of entry or very similar and that leaves it wide open for interpretation. Many AHJ's however do set some sort of limit, 3 feet and 5 feet seem to be pretty common limits though.
Thanks
 

don_resqcapt19

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Illinois
Occupation
retired electrician
This is Chicago. I know this, but no I don’t know where it is in the book. I’ve worked here all my life. I will try to find it when I have a minute. I know that the NEC 2020 requires it. Ours is 17 modified
Thanks
Mike
That is one of the things that changed when the 2018 Chicago Electrical Code was adopted.
Revise subsection 230.70(A) to read:
“(A) Location. The service disconnecting means shall be installed in accordance with 230.70(A)(1), (A)(2), (A)(3), (A)(4), and (A)(5).
(1) One- and Two-Family Dwellings. In one- and two-family dwellings the service disconnecting means shall be installed at a readily accessible location in the basement or first floor of the building at a point not exceeding 1.52 m (5 ft) from the point of entry into the building. When the length of the service raceway exceeds 1.52 m (5 ft) from the point of entry into the building, the service raceway shall conform to the requirements of 230.6.
(2) In Other Than One- and Two-Family Dwellings. In other than one- and two- family dwellings, the service disconnecting means shall be installed at a readily accessible location either outside of the building or structure or inside the building or structure nearest the point of entrance of the service conductors. When the length of the service raceway exceeds 1.52 m (5 ft) from the point of entry into the building, the service raceway shall conform to the requirements of 230.6.
 
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