Here we go again- hallway or not

[Dennis Alwon]

Here is a picture of a room in a house I just finished. I am taking the picture from the main entry looking straight out to the side screen porch. The counter on the left is an island for the kitchen in which we are seeing the back side. To the right is the dining room but as you may see it is all open (no walls).
The island has receptacles above counter height. Since the dining room is on the other side I say that the counter receptacles should qualify for the outlets that may or may not be required on the back side of the island (the side you can see.
Agree???? disagree????
Also what if the room to the right were the living room. I actually see this area as an extension of the hallway. There are no walls but it is the walkway from the hall to the porch. What say ye????

 

[chris kennedy]

Dennis, 210.52 (B) (5) Exception. Is this a trick question?

 

[360Youth]

I don't consider it a hallway, let's get that much out of the way. This has all the makings of subjective opinion. IMO, it is the back of the island and no receptacle outets required. Just because it has the appearence of a room divider does not make it so. Code does not require floor outlets if there were no such divider, why require receptacles on the backside of a KITCHEN staple? The final arguement for me is the overhang, which suggests seating area. That all being said, it seems to me that I have heard/seen discussion on this being >2' of wall space, therefore requiring the receptacles. Maybe somone knows a more definitive definition somewhere on the books. (I agree, that if this were a DRM on the other side, and not a LRM, we would not be having this discussion.)

 

[Dennis Alwon]

You got me confused now. I am saying that there are 2 receptacles on the island counter (kitchen side). Do I need receptacles on the island (dining room side) per code.
edit. responding to Chris

 

[Dennis Alwon]

IMO, it is the back of the island and no receptacle outets required. Just because it has the appearence of a room divider does not make it so.

I disagree with this. It is a room divider and if the living room were on the side the dining room is on you would need receptacles, unless this space can be seen as a hall area.

 

[chris kennedy]

Do I need receptacles on the island (dining room side) per code.
edit. responding to Chris

No not IMO. The overhang prohibits it. Usable wall space and a floor box? I think the bar stool might knock over the floor lamp.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

No not IMO. The overhang prohibits it. Usable wall space and a floor box? I think the bar stool might knock over the floor lamp.

The receptacle can go in the base of the cabinet near the floor (there is a 3.5" dead space for the kitchen kick space.

Does the code say usable wall space??

 

[LawnGuyLandSparky]

I think there is more to define a hallway than a room entrance located directly across from a doorway.

 

[360Youth]

I think the bar stool might knock over the floor lamp.

:grin: Now, there's the wording I was looking for.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

I think there is more to define a hallway than a room entrance located directly across from a doorway.

But it truely is a walkway. The dining room table is on the opposite side of the walk area defined by three walls.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

:grin: Now, there's the wording I was looking for.

The NEC could care less about the bar stool knocking over a lamp-- who says there needs to be a lamp there.

 

[chris kennedy]

Dennis, do you have stock in Carlon? Are you insisting there should be a floor box there? Is that usable wall space in your opinion?

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Dennis, do you have stock in Carlon? Are you insisting there should be a floor box there? Is that usable wall space in your opinion?

In this situation I am not sure whether I would reuiqre one. I did not install one there because I don't believe it necessary. However, if that so called hallway wasn't an issue and the room was a living room and not a dining room I would say yes you definitely need one.

I do not understand the statement of usable space. Where is that in the code?

 

[Smart $]

...What say ye????

Not a hallway. IMO, a hallway requires a room divider on both sides of the pathway.

Receptacle required on dining room side, per 210.52(A)(2)(3) with emphasis on bar-type counters. This receptacle is permitted to be placed there because it is not there to comply with 210.52(C)(5) Exception, i.e. it is not being put there to serve the countertop.

 

[chris kennedy]

I

I do not understand the statement of usable space. Where is that in the code?

210.52(2)(1)

 

[360Youth]

In this situation I am not sure whether I would reuiqre one. I did not install one there because I don't believe it necessary. However, if that so called hallway wasn't an issue and the room was a living room and not a dining room I would say yes you definitely need one.

I do not understand the statement of usable space. Where is that in the code?

I understood the quetion, or so I thought, what I don't understand, is if you thought it may need a receptacle, why didn't you wire for it? Or is this one of those things that just show on the plans, but turns the wheels when it is visually in place? I think you're good.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

I didn't wire for it because I do consider that a walkway and since the room on that side is the dining room then the receptacles on the counter would count as the required receptacles. Even though that don't face that direction they would meet the required spacing.

Also the HO is very particular and doesn't want them. I felt comfortable saying okay but was curious what you all thought. The inspector may have a word to say about it. We will see.

 

[chris kennedy]

Dennis, looks like the counter top isn't quite level. Did you stand on it while trimming the high hats?

 

[ptonsparky]

Lend them a couple bar stools for a week if you really think it is going to be a problem. That would make it a table.

 

[360Youth]

since the room on that side is the dining room then the receptacles on the counter would count as the required receptacles. Even though that don't face that direction they would meet the required spacing.

Not sure I follow you on that one, but okay.

Dennis, looks like the counter top isn't quite level. Did you stand on it while trimming the high hats?

:grin: