Here we go again- hallway or not

[Dennis Alwon]

Dennis, looks like the counter top isn't quite level. Did you stand on it while trimming the high hats?

Hell, the whole room is slanted-- that's my eagle eye behind the camera-- I must have moved before it shot the picture.

 

[kingpb]

Who cares what the NEC says, it's only minimum requirements. You should consult with the HO and let them decide where they might need a receptacle.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Who cares what the NEC says, it's only minimum requirements. You should consult with the HO and let them decide where they might need a receptacle.

This is true but the HO sometimes don't want to meet the minimum requirement. In this particular case, I think I am covered but I am pretty certain if it were a little different scenario I would have to add receptacles on the back side of the cabinet whether the ho wanted them or not.

 

[charlie b]

Two points.

First, Dennis would you please explain the difference that the identity of the room to the right (i.e., dining room versus living room) makes, with regard to the need (or lack of need) to install receptacles? I understand that if this were called a hallway, then one receptacle in the opposite wall might be all that is needed.

Second, there has been at least on long thread that included many contradicting opinions on the question of placing a receptacle under an overhang that exceeds 6 inches. I would rather not repeat that discussion here. If someone is interested, then feel free to look up the previous thread(s). My recollection is that I thought you could never place a receptacle under an overhang that exceeds 6 inches, regardless of whether that receptacle would have been the “one that is required” or “in addition to the one that is required.” I haven’t had enough coffee yet this morning to retrace the steps that led me to that conclusion.

 

[jwelectric]

If I was the inspector this is what I would look at:

Although it might be a walkway this does not fit the description of a hallway and it is part of an open room.

Part III of 210 for the placement of receptacle outlets, 210.52 (A) outlines the general provisions of dwelling unit receptacle outlets. 210.52 (A)(1) outlines the spacing and 210.52 (A)(2) defines what constitutes this wall space.

Looking at the picture there is no question that there is a wall there and the kitchen cabinets are built to this wall. This wall is also outlined in 210.52 (A)(2) (3) The space afforded by fixed room dividers such as freestanding bar-type counters or railings

This wall faces the dinning room so any receptacle installed would be required to be on the small appliance circuit.

If I was the inspector I would require a receptacle to be installed on this wall and for it to be on the small appliance circuit.

Some might try to defend this using the overhang of the bar and section 210.52(C)(5) exception.
To this I would simply remind that person that 210.52(C)(5) is addressing the receptacles that are installed for the countertop and has no bearing on the wall space receptacles outlined in 210.52 (A)(2) (3)

A receptacle would be required in order to be code compliant.

 

[Smart $]

If I was the inspector...

...receptacle would be required in order to be code compliant.

Though less wordy, I said the same thing in post #14...

 

[jwelectric]

Though less wordy, I said the same thing in post #14...

We stand in agreement.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

[A receptacle would be required in order to be code compliant.

Would you agree that the 2 receptacles on the kitchen side of the island would be acceptable as the required outlets since they are on a SABC?

Charlie- my point was exactly what JW stated. If the room is a dining room then the required outlets need to be on a SABC . My thinking was that since there were 2 receptacles on both ends of the island on the kitchen counter would they not be acceptable as stated above. Thus, I feel there would be no need for another receptacle on this wall.

 

[macmikeman]

In my humble opinion, this falls under room divider and a receptacle is required, (sorry Charlie) not necessarily for a lamp, but how about the vacume cleaner. The size of the overhang on the countertop prevents putting any outlet there to serve the countertop appliances but the wall space down below the overhang does make for a room divider so it needs an outlet. The outlet should NOT be on the sabc since it does not serve the countertop appliances

 

[yanici]

The outlet should NOT be on the sabc since it does not serve the countertop appliances

I think the outlet ends up in the dining room. So sabc is in IMO.:wink:

 

[macmikeman]

Pardon me, but I didn't catch the dining room part. In that case, although makes no sence, it needs to be on the sabc.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Pardon me, but I didn't catch the dining room part. In that case, although makes no sence, it needs to be on the sabc.

I am not sure why this is so complicated. I am probably not explaining things well but I will give it another shot.
1) There are 2 recep. on the island facing the kitchen counter space-- that is not the issue.

2) The island does divide the kitchen from the dining room. Thus being a divider I believe that the divide needs a receptacle on the SABC or another 20 amp circuit that satisfies the SABC requirement.

3) Since there are 2 receptacles on the counter-- although not facing the direction of the dining room--- are they not acceptable as satisfying the code for the "so-called" required divider receptacles.

4) If, hypothetically, the room were a living room instead of a dining room then the receptacles on the counter would not count as the required receptacle since it is a SABC. It would need to be on a non SABC to serve the living room.

Does this make sense?

 

[stickboy1375]

Dennis, I wouldn't even call a peninsula wall space, with that said, it requires 1 receptacle, thats all code requires...

 

[jwelectric]

3) Since there are 2 receptacles on the counter-- although not facing the direction of the dining room--- are they not acceptable as satisfying the code for the "so-called" required divider receptacles.

Does this make sense?

Are you saying the receptacles that are required by 210.52(C) can fulfill the requirements for 210.52(A)?

I don?t think that this will work.

 

[iwire]

Are you saying the receptacles that are required by 210.52(C) can fulfill the requirements for 210.52(A)?

I don?t think that this will work.

Why not if the space is dinning?

Is there a requirement that the receptacle face into the space?

 

[stickboy1375]

Opps, I had to re look at the picture, it is an island correct? and it is in a kitchen correct? well then I would use 210.52 (C)(2)... and nothing more, but I would have asked the HO if they would want a receptacle installed on the dining room side...

 

[hmspe]

Here's my opinion:

The receptacles on the kitchen side have no bearing on the dining room side of the divider. You can't reach through the divider -- you'd have to run a cord over the top of the counter. IMO this is to be treated just like a normal wall, and each side has to comply on it's own. One or more receptacles is required on the dining room side.

Martin

 

[Smart $]

Is there a requirement that the receptacle face into the space?

IMO the receptacles on the kitchen side do count towards wall spacing defined by 210.52(A)(2)(1), most notably where it says "(including space measured around corners)".

However, if any point of the dining-room-side wall/divider space is more than 6' from both kitchen-side receptacles, as measured along the floor line of the island, a receptacle facing the dining room is required.

[Edited typo's]

 

[jwelectric]

Are you saying the receptacles that are required by 210.52(C) can fulfill the requirements for 210.52(A)?

I don?t think that this will work.

Why not if the space is dinning?

Is there a requirement that the receptacle face into the space?

The receptacles on the countertop and the receptacles for the wall are required by two different sections and pertain to different areas therefore one cannot replace the other.

 

[LarryFine]

The receptacles on the countertop and the receptacles for the wall are required by two different sections and pertain to different areas therefore one cannot replace the other.

Maybe not, but one receptacle can satisfy both sections.