Here we go again- hallway or not

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jwelectric

jwelectric

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Location
North Carolina
LarryFine said:
Maybe not, but one receptacle can satisfy both sections.
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Although I once would have agreed, now I disagree with this thinking.
Explain what is meant by 210.52(B)(1) when it clearly refers to the two areas as being separate

(1) Receptacle Outlets Served. In the kitchen, pantry, breakfast room, dining room, or similar area of a dwelling unit, the two or more 20-ampere small-appliance branch circuits required by 210.11(C)(1) shall serve all wall and floor receptacle outlets covered by 210.52(A), all countertop outlets covered by 210.52(C), and receptacle outlets for refrigeration equipment.

Why not just make the rule read like this

(1) Receptacle Outlets Served. In the kitchen, pantry, breakfast room, dining room, or similar area of a dwelling unit, the two or more 20-ampere small-appliance branch circuits required by 210.11(C)(1) shall serve all receptacle outlets.

There is a reason why they describe the two areas as being different. Wonder why that is?
 
D

Dave_PE

Member
When I read 210.52 (B)(1), it tells me that the dining room and the breakfast room receptacles SHALL be on the two or more small appliance circuits.

So if the peninsular counter separates the dinning room from the kitchen, the receptacles can be on the same circuit, but if the peninsular counter separates the family room from the kitchen then the receptacles must be on different circuits.
 
LarryFine

LarryFine

Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
Location
Henrico County, VA
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So, you two are saying that, if you place a receptacle on an island or peninsula that qualifies as serving the countertop, and also satisfies the spacing requirements of the adjoining room, you'd still install two receptacles?

I wouldn't.
 
stickboy1375

stickboy1375

Senior Member
Location
Litchfield, CT
Dave_PE said:
What about 210.52(A)(2)(3)? I've had several cases where the end of the island faces the dining room, so there is one receptacle at 18" and a second one directly above it at 36".

Check out this link for a visual. Look at the bottom right photo.

http://www.channelsidere.com/address.php?property_ID=12
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If a island is indeed to follow 210.51(A)(2)(3) and it does face a dining room, why install 2 receptacles? the higher up one serving the island would suffice for the dining room side... unless it is a design issue only... and just my 2 cents, I have NEVER roughed in a island/peninsula to meet 210.52.
 
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stickboy1375

stickboy1375

Senior Member
Location
Litchfield, CT
What was his reasoning behind it? a dining room receptacle is allowed on a SAB circuit... And the height was definitely not an issue...


1099601197_2.jpg



The way I look at it, if code wanted more than one receptacle, they would clearly tell you so...
 
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D

Dave_PE

Member
Not sure.....the EC installed them, without questioning the inspector. He did not charge for them either, so maybe it was politics.
 
Pierre C Belarge

Pierre C Belarge

Senior Member
Location
Westchester County, New York
I agree with Mike Whitt on this one. He has also done a fine job of quoting the code and making sense of it all. Good job Mike. :cool:


Dennis
You also have done a fine job of stretching the meaning of hallway. Your use of calling it a walkway is not referenced in the NEC or even in the building codes. :wink:
 
George Stolz

George Stolz

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Windsor, CO NEC: 2017
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Dave_PE said:
What about 210.52(A)(2)(3)? I've had several cases where the end of the island faces the dining room, so there is one receptacle at 18" and a second one directly above it at 36".

Check out this link for a visual. Look at the bottom right photo.
Click to expand...

thumb_1178055412.JPG


I really do not understand the point of this one at all. I have seen them required on the backside of islands, never on the side as this one.

The backside is the side that's generally percieved as the room divider, IMO. Especially in cases where the island has a stick-framed and drywalled wall immediately behind it, that the cabinetry conforms to.
 
JohnJ0906

JohnJ0906

Senior Member
Location
Baltimore, MD
georgestolz said:
thumb_1178055412.JPG


I really do not understand the point of this one at all. I have seen them required on the backside of islands, never on the side as this one.

The backside is the side that's generally percieved as the room divider, IMO. Especially in cases where the island has a stick-framed and drywalled wall immediately behind it, that the cabinetry conforms to.
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Agreed. Why 2 outlets? IMO, one covers both requirements
 
Dennis Alwon

Dennis Alwon

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Location
Chapel Hill, NC
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Retired Electrical Contractor
Well, it seems like this post has created the usual differences of opinions. I have been gone for a few days and was quite amazed at the response-- I certainly didn't expect it. I would like to comment on a few.

Stickboy, I notice that you are questioning whether an Island or a peninsula would constitute wall space. I can only say that in my mind there is no question that an island or peninsula constitute wall space. An island is often a room divider and is definitely so in this case. Read article 210.52 (A)(2)(3) and i think this would fall under the bar type counters.

Pierre C Belarge said:
Dennis
You also have done a fine job of stretching the meaning of hallway. Your use of calling it a walkway is not referenced in the NEC or even in the building codes. :wink:
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Pierre-- I understand that the NEC does not use the words walkway. I used it because I did not really consider it a hallway, although the NEC does not really define a hallway. My point was at first to point out that it makes no sense to have an outlet there since it would be in the middle of an area that will be used for traffic. But then I went further to suggest that suppose that walkway was not there would it make any difference. I think not.

Mike Whitt-- maybe I am just dull but I do not see the problem that you pointed out. Yes, I was saying that the receptacles on the island counter could double for the ones that would be required for the dining room. I still think that as long as (someone else mentioned this) that the spacing was less than 6' between the receptacles when measured around the wall. The counter is only 6' or 7' long- so that is not an issue.
 
B

bstoin

Senior Member
stickboy1375 said:
The real question is, Does an island/peninsula count as wall space... IMO no...
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FYI...in this instance this would be considered a wall space, since there IS a wall space; this would not be considered a peninsula since there is a wall space above the cabinets which would require outlets every 48" or less on the kitchen side, not just one as minimum requirements of a peninsula. In this case (from my experience) since there is a wall there would be a requirement of recepticle placement on the dining room side even though the wall does not extend up to the ceiling.
(see picture in OP...there is a wall constructed)
 
Dennis Alwon

Dennis Alwon

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Chapel Hill, NC
Occupation
Retired Electrical Contractor
bstoin said:
this would not be considered a peninsula since there is a wall space above the cabinets which would require outlets every 48" or less on the kitchen side, not just one as minimum requirements of a peninsula.
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First off this is an island and no a peninsula and secondly, I am not sure what a wall higher than the counter has to do with it. A peninsula is a peninsula whether there is a wall higher than the counter or not.

I agree if there were a wall higher than counter it is easier to add more receptacles but i do not believe they would be required-- just one is required.
 
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