Hey there everyone!

[jrannis]

Ok.. then answer me this... arent you supposed to retorque aluminum conductrs like that once a year or something like that? Who, and or how will that be possible when a store runs 24 hours a day? I wont stick my torque wrench under there after its on and running.


The only reason I think its bad is just from what I've seen. My friend with that 400 amp service didn't listen to me, and got aluminum. I used a snap-on torque wrench when I did the install, and still within a year his neutral was a little loose. Made his lights flicker a bit if he turned on his hot water. And yes, I know they want to save money.. but come on.. I seen these guys pay thru the ass to move a hallway over 2 feet. After the front tennant spaces were done, they wanted it moved... Got to break up a lot of red concrete for that one.

Proper tightening or torqueing is necessary to attain a reliable connection. Once the correct torque is achieved, there is no need to go back and re-torque the lug with an AA-8000 series aluminum alloy conductor.

Re-torquing is a total myth. Aluminum feeders are the only way to go in this day and age.
If you read the installation instructions for copper wire it will tell you to brush and apply no-lox. Aluminum feeders save lots of labor, cost and injuries related to the reduced weight.
If you had any concern you could install pin connectors on the cable terminiations and still be way ahead on costs.
The old style Aluminum was nasty, the new alloy is very nice and a pleasure to work with.

Aluminum building wire is something few people in the residential and commercial electrical industry don't have a passionate opinion about. More often than not, you will find this opinion is based on 40-year-old facts, and a misunderstanding of those facts. Aluminum building wire, through the efforts of manufacturers like Southwire, and organizations such and the NEC? and UL?, is a proven safe and reliable system.

And don't forget about the advantages of aluminum building wire over copper, particularly in the larger sizes (6AWG- 900kcmil). It is much lighter and more economical. This means easier installations, fewer injuries, and pound-for-pound more conductivity. Those that have embraced feeder sized aluminum building wire, are reaping the benefits, and may very well be hoping you walk away from this information clinging tight to your old misconceptions since they could be bidding their next job against you.

So why tell this story? With the rise in copper prices over the past few years renewed interest in aluminum building wire is gathering. Many contractors and owners find themselves looking for an alternative to provide relief from rising copper prices. Unfortunately, they are still being misinformed that the very solution they hope for does not exist. Well it does and it has for over 35 years. It's called AA-8000 series aluminum alloy. And Southwire Company developed it in 1968.

So now when you hear someone say "aluminum causes fires" you can reply with the facts about today's aluminum building wire;

A problem that happened 40 years ago, failure of utility grade aluminum and a simple steel screw, is simply not relevant to the aluminum building wire installed today. With the development of an improved aluminum alloy, AA-8000, increased NEC and UL requirements, and a proven track record of over 30 years, aluminum building wire is just as safe and just as reliable as copper.

http://www.southwire.com/processGetArticle.do?commonId=48464972cbdd5110VgnVCM1000002702a8c0____

 

[Pierre C Belarge]

What kind of makes me laugh a little is how some people, when discussing Al conductors, seem to completely forget about how many copper terminations they have come across that have failed.
The majority of termination failures today are due to human error, not to the products used for installation - I am referring to the installations performed by ELECTRICIANS, not DIYERs.


BTW: The pipe work is beautiful to see. we do not see nearly as much around here as when I came into the industry.
As has been posted, MC/AC/NM is the wiring method we see most today.

I have been invited to take pictures on a very large commercial install this coming week. It has all of the main/feeders in EMT. I will post some of the pics if I get good ones - not good work, good quality pics...I still am not the best photographer yet.

 

[Pierre C Belarge]

Tell me this does not bring back memories...
I remember getting tired just from walking through that stuff!

 

[iwire]

Tell me this does not bring back memories...
I remember getting tired just from walking through that stuff!

That is a great picture and really conveys how nasty it can be.

The company here just did a Lowe's and from all I have heard it was just like above only with low temps.

 

[peter d]

Made his lights flicker a bit if he turned on his hot water.

The light flicker was probably caused by the massive amount of current that those instantaneous heaters draw, not a loose neutral.

 

[peter d]

The companies I have worked for do Walmarts, Lowe's, HDs etc and I have rarely seen that much tubing in any of those stores.

I was thinking the same thing, the super centers that they do seem to have 1/3 the amount of EMT in them coming from the pre-fab.

Edit: how many points?

 

[Eric VerValin]

Yep, was done in rural Whitley county. That place has been sitting there 40 years, and was put in place where a woods once stood 40 years ago. That ground aint moving, or the AHJ didn't care. I know him from doing commercial work around and just asked him once when I seen him about what he wanted to see. He said the utility company would tell me what they wanted up to the meterbase, after that it was mine.

I got some paperwork provided to me by the electric co., and they just wanted a 4" peice with a factory 90 on the end, and they would dig the trench to the street and lay the line and everything. Maybe they looped it maybe they didn't I don't know. But I never seen or heard anyone say anything about it. This clay around here dosen't move much if you've ever had the pleasure of digging in it. Especially ones full of tree roots.

I drove 2 ground rods, and other than that, its pretty standard. parallel feeds, one splits to each load center.


Transformer... 480 Delta / 240 Delta.. not a wye wye.. lol

Sorry its ugly.. not my design I just do what I'm told.. lol


LoL MC? Do you have a clue what all that pipe is? one rack is all the lighting for the sales floor. Some of the home runs were 500 feet, and at that distance you're talking #8's.

Another rack is for all of the roof top units on the sales floor, 30 some I think ? and spares for all the stupid stuff, price checkers, aquarium displays, the power for the radio stuff in the auto center.

Another rack is all electronics.. a good 60 circuits there.

And the last one is for all of the rear offices. You can say what you want about MC. But I pulled ALL that wire in a week and 1/2. All home runs right where they needed to go, straight easy pullsg. After I pulled the home runs, I had all the roof tops made up, and the rear tennant spaces completed within 2 weeks, just me and my helper. Pipe is a lot cheaper if you can run it fast enough. I'll have to look for my pics.. each pipe drops off in sequence, no more than 360 to any of the home runs, was easy stuff when it came time to pulling wire. I was so far ahead, I was taking 2 hour lunches with the boss.

A lot of the stuff up front is MC.. like most of the tennant spaces, but back where I was, there was a strict note on the print about NO MC, FMC, or anything below the perling in the warehouse and dock area. HAD to be pipe. Someone get me another pic of EDC1 in the back of the store.. (Most stores its in the back hallway by the break room) .. I wanna see MC coming outta there.. lol


Good read on the aluminum... And yes, all the good stories are from the older KT wiring 12-14awg issues. Just spooks me how soft it is I suppose. I know Aluminum heats and contracts a lot easier with heat than copper would, maybe thats where I think it could be a problem. Seen a lot of Aluminum heads leak, that sit on top of steel motors. Dissimmilar corrosion comes to mind as well...

And I've always been told to put No-Lox on AL condutors... now i'm really confused..



And the water heater... Yea she pulls a little bit...

 

[peter d]

Pipe is a lot cheaper if you can run it fast enough. I'll have to look for my pics.. each pipe drops off in sequence, no more than 360 to any of the home runs, was easy stuff when it came time to pulling wire. I was so far ahead, I was taking 2 hour lunches with the boss.

A lot of the stuff up front is MC.. like most of the tennant spaces, but back where I was, there was a strict note on the print about NO MC, FMC, or anything below the perling in the warehouse and dock area. HAD to be pipe. Someone get me another pic of EDC1 in the back of the store.. (Most stores its in the back hallway by the break room) .. I wanna see MC coming outta there.. lol

Very nice work, by the way.


We can debate pipe vs. MC until the cows come home, but I guarantee that if MC was allowed to be used by the specs it would be cheaper to install. I'm surprised that Walmart has not done some costing estimates on it yet vs. pipe. It would not look as nice, but who's looking at it other than us electricians anyway?

As far as dropping MC into the EDC, all you would have to do is drop some ladder tray down from the purlins and ty wrap it on. That is a very common method around here. Or, you could pipe up to some troughs at purlin height and change over to MC (also very common here.)

 

[Eric VerValin]

Yea but when you screw something up, and forget some circuits.. I got something to pull thru.. My fav benifit of pipe.. lol for the whoops factor.

 

[iwire]

It is good looking pipe work.

Yea but when you screw something up, and forget some circuits..

Stop forgetting things. :grin:

 

[Eric VerValin]

Ok.. well let me put it this way.. The store was ''done'' and in walmarts hands in November... I just talked with my buddy who is in charge of that job still, and they just put out another change order CCD #14, and changed the location of 50 power drops.

Hopefully I have enough spares up there for someone.

 

[jrannis]

Seems like pipe was the way to go on this type of installation. MC is good for #12 and #14 but I dont think you can beat pipe and wire in the bigger stuff.

BTW, I have repaired many more bad copper terminations than Aluminum. The steel screw is the real problem.

 

[iwire]

MC is good for #12 and #14 but I dont think you can beat pipe and wire in the bigger stuff.

You can, and we do.

4/0-4 MC run it, terminate it, done.

 

[peter d]

LoL MC? Do you have a clue what all that pipe is? one rack is all the lighting for the sales floor. Some of the home runs were 500 feet, and at that distance you're talking #8's.

... and spares for all the stupid stuff, price checkers, aquarium displays, the power for the radio stuff in the auto center.

Another rack is all electronics.. a good 60 circuits there.

Since no one else has asked, now it's time. Did you use multiwire branch circuits for all that stuff? (AKA shared neutral circuits, full boats, networks, MWBC's, edison circuits, etc.)


I'm assuming that the #8's were for the 120 volt circuits? I can't imagine needing to run #8 for 277/480 volts lighting circuits. (That's the whole point of 277/480 anyway - much less voltage drop)

Anyway, I'm not second guessing your work, I'm more curious about it since I've never worked on a job like that.

 

[iwire]

LoL MC? Do you have a clue what all that pipe is?

No....none at all, I know nothing of large retail stores. :grin:


This was my last big job...

 

[peter d]

Seems like pipe was the way to go on this type of installation. MC is good for #12 and #14 but I dont think you can beat pipe and wire in the bigger stuff.

Let's say, for the sake of argument, and assume that specs would allow MC, that each row of lights in wally world takes 2 circuits, and they are 277 volts. (I don't know the actual details.) For this light feed you could run a 12/3 or 10/3 MC cable right from the contactor or energy managment panel right into the row of lights - done. No pipe, no bending, no racks. Just some ty raps and a lift, and you would have that store circuited in record time.

Even the large RTU's could be wired with 8/3, 6/3 or 4/3 MC or whatever they need. Heck, if Walmart specs aluminum wire, they could used aluminum MC - they make it in every size under the sun.

Anyway, you get my point.

 

[peter d]

This was my last big job...

Not too far from the truth actually.

 

[jrannis]

You can, and we do.

4/0-4 MC run it, terminate it, done.

I dont know if Im ready for that yet.
How big of a reel would it take to handle 300' of that stuff?

 

[jrannis]

Let's say, for the sake of argument, and assume that specs would allow MC, that each row of lights in wally world takes 2 circuits, and they are 277 volts. (I don't know the actual details.) For this light feed you could run a 12/3 or 10/3 MC cable right from the contactor or energy managment panel right into the row of lights - done. No pipe, no bending, no racks. Just some ty raps and a lift, and you would have that store circuited in record time.

Even the large RTU's could be wired with 8/3, 6/3 or 4/3 MC or whatever they need. Heck, if Walmart specs aluminum wire, they could used aluminum MC - they make it in every size under the sun.

Anyway, you get my point.

Wouldnt it be kinda sloppy hanging between the 5' barjoists?

 

[Eric VerValin]

Well the 8's and what not were for some of the lighting in that store, because they had moved the EDC down about another 75 feet, and it was too far for the circuits on the outside wall near the grocery. Everything on those prints are already ''figured out'' *(for the most part...) as far as voltage drop and what not.. I've second guessed things plenty of times and realized how they got their answer if I thought about it for a second.

That store was a prototype, usually those pipe racks go thru the top of the breakrooms, so you never see it back there, thats most of it right there, why you've never seen it all. It does suck after the painters come thru tho, its like its not even up there.