HID Lighting Breaker Failures

Status
Not open for further replies.
augie47

augie47

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Tennessee
Occupation
State Electrical Inspector (Retired)
Situation:
Ball Field Lighting
Main breaker and branch breakers are suffering a "melt down".
200 amp LoadCenters (UGH !). 60 amp branch breakers.
Highest load on the panel at any time is 153 amps. Highest load on the branch breakers is 35 amps.
No obvious signs of loose connections, wiring is all compliant.
My first inclination is that by using the load-center we are asking a boy to do a man's job:D I can understand to some degree the failure over time of the 200 amp main
(they are the 'tandem" type breakers...look like 2dp molded together). But I have no idea as to why the branch breakers are suffering. Buss is clean, no loose connections.
As far as the branch breakers, would HID rated breakers hold up any better ?

Input welcomed !
 
augie47 said:
As far as the branch breakers, would HID rated breakers hold up any better ?
Click to expand...
I would not be concerned with the loadcenter vs panelboard (the biggest difference is usually about the enclosure) as much as the breakers, where you would want 'commercial grade' (the type that fit into panelboards).
If the breakers are being used as switches, then yes they need to be the HID type.
If there are separate lighting contactors, are they experiencing any problems?

Remember, you don't get what you don't pay for. Cheap initial installations often result in expensive maintenance.
 
I have not seen the breakers but from what I am told it's case deterioration..no particular "hot spots" and, unlike what we often see, no particular evidence of a loose connection on the stabs.
They do have contactors and the breakers are not used for switching.
These are replacement panel about 4 years old. They have changed out one main and several branches in that time. The system is 15 years old and over that time frame they have changed out about 1/4 of the contactors.
 
Corrosive or other chemical vapors in the location?
Maybe carried into the panel through one or more of the raceways?
Really high ambient temp for some reason, not necessarily during use?
Just brainstorming....

Tapatalk!
 
Ball field lighting = tall structures = potential higher risk of lightning damages?

What kind of lighting do you have and what kind harmonics does it produce?
 
Details are sketchy (Problem was posed to me, I had no answers...getting ideas)
 
augie47 said:
Situation:
Ball Field Lighting
Main breaker and branch breakers are suffering a "melt down".
200 amp LoadCenters (UGH !). 60 amp branch breakers.
Highest load on the panel at any time is 153 amps. Highest load on the branch breakers is 35 amps.
No obvious signs of loose connections, wiring is all compliant.
My first inclination is that by using the load-center we are asking a boy to do a man's job:D I can understand to some degree the failure over time of the 200 amp main
(they are the 'tandem" type breakers...look like 2dp molded together). But I have no idea as to why the branch breakers are suffering. Buss is clean, no loose connections.
As far as the branch breakers, would HID rated breakers hold up any better ?

Input welcomed !
Click to expand...

Can you describe the area in which the Loadcenter is installed?
Out in a field on a pedestal? Inside the janitor's closet at the concession?
 
Sahib said:
Perhaps lower sized contactors-contacts welding due to inrush current on switching.
Might have damaged (undersized?) breakers also?
Click to expand...
How does that cause a problem at the breaker if they are not switching the load with the breaker?
 
With ITE panels is if these are of the aluminum bus type and there is a high ambient moisture in the air around the panel then I would be taking a better look at the breaker to bus connection, even if it doesn't show signs of damage now its only a mater of time, we had a very high failure rate with ITE's with the aluminum bus where they were located in an area of high ambient moisture such as laundry rooms and damp basements or outdoors.

Also the connection loss at the bus stabs can heat the internal components of the breaker which will cause the case of the breaker to start breaking down.
 
Last edited:
kwired said:
Yet according to OP there was none of the signs that should typically accompany this problem
Click to expand...

True, but so far we only have third hand information. It doesn't take much deterioration on the stabs to cause voltage sags under load, which would increase the load on the contactors which could lead to early failure.

Assuming all the lights get turned on at once, putting the main breakers and busbars under a heavy load, all it takes is one bad connection, for instance where the bus adapters get bolted to the lugs on the mains, to create some nasty conditions. I have seen many of these ITE mains with a weak connection at exactly this point. If it is one of the main-to-bus adapters, it could also be causing chattering of the contactors. Either way, I would get really analytical on those panels.
 
Last edited:
PetrosA said:
True, but so far we only have third hand information. It doesn't take much deterioration on the stabs to cause voltage sags under load, which would increase the load on the contactors which could lead to early failure.

Assuming all the lights get turned on at once, putting the main breakers and busbars under a heavy load, all it takes is one bad connection, for instance where the bus adapters get bolted to the lugs on the mains, to create some nasty conditions. I have seen many of these ITE mains with a weak connection at exactly this point. If it is one of the main-to-bus adapters, it could also be causing chattering of the contactors. Either way, I would get really analytical on those panels.
Click to expand...
Can't say I have had much of that experience with an ITE panel, but there really are not that many around this area either. But when I have seen such problems in other panels the signs are usually fairly obvious.

Last one I recall having such problems with was a QO panel - newer style with tin plated copper bus. Symptoms started by occasionally tripping the main breaker, or at least that is what user noticed before calling me. I noticed a fair amount of heat in this panel, but was not just too overly concerned either as with constant heavy loads like they had in this panel you should get some heat. The total worst case loading was under 80% of the main rating so I didn't figure there was an overload problem. But when I removed several branch breakers to look at the bus, the bus was probably discolored some but that did not stand out as much as the melted bus support assembly. I told them they needed to replace the panel and all the breakers or else if they mixed any compromised parts it just may speed up deterioration of the replaced parts.
 
kwired said:
Yet according to OP there was none of the signs that should typically accompany this problem
Click to expand...

We had a few that even though the bus stabs didn't show signs of heating, the spring clips on the breaker did and they got hot enough the start cracking the Bakelite on the sides of the breaker, the bus stabs did have a light coating of white powder aluminum oxide on then which we cleaned off, then we used a silicone base dielectric grease on all the breakers in the panel including the new ones, and as far as I know we never had another problem with that panel, about 15 years ago we quit using ITE's and switched to Square D all copper bus or tin plated copper bus panels and never had another problem, Sylvania as well as T&B (for the short period they got into distribution equipment) was also had allot of these types of problems, with T&B it was their meter packs with stripped self tapping screws on the aluminum bus taps, yep they screwed right into the bus instead of using nut & bolt and bevel washers.

We got tired real quick of having to replace equipment under warranty and fighting with the manufactures trying to cover our labor cost, same problems with GE half space breakers, how they got those breakers past UL I have no idea, as the 20 and 30 amp would burn up that little stab on contact almost every time if the circuit was even close to the rating of the breaker, GE at least told us the panel was listed for full 1" tandems on the full size stabs that were in between each two sets of the mini stabs which kept us from having to replace the whole panel but it still didn't feel right doing it like that.

The ITE 200 amp mains were stab on on the line side, yes stab on!!!! they stabbed onto two small buses that each had a lug you attached your incoming SEC's to the bottom had lugs that had a Y shaped bus jumper that fit into these lugs that had a set screws that tighten down on, the other end of the Y attached to the main bus , once they changed like everyone else they did away with them and went with a single 200 amp main (MBK200A) that was mounted sideways with the bus connectors out the bottom to bolt onto the main bus and lugs on the top, which allowed us to mount the panel upside down.
 
hurk27 said:
The ITE 200 amp mains were stab on on the line side, yes stab on!!!! they stabbed onto two small buses that each had a lug you attached your incoming SEC's to the bottom had lugs that had a Y shaped bus jumper that fit into these lugs that had a set screws that tighten down on, the other end of the Y attached to the main bus , once they changed like everyone else they did away with them and went with a single 200 amp main (MBK200A) that was mounted sideways with the bus connectors out the bottom to bolt onto the main bus and lugs on the top, which allowed us to mount the panel upside down.
Click to expand...

Wayne, you have a better memory than I do. I forgot about the stabs on these and they are the weak link. What's worse, they're not really visible in most installations unless you get up on a ladder and peek down on the top of the main breaker. New stabs are included in the replacement main breaker kit.
 
Good Points. I will pass along.
A factory rep is supposed to visit the scene this week.
 
PetrosA said:
Wayne, you have a better memory than I do. I forgot about the stabs on these and they are the weak link. What's worse, they're not really visible in most installations unless you get up on a ladder and peek down on the top of the main breaker. New stabs are included in the replacement main breaker kit.
Click to expand...

Don't know about the memory part as I forget as much as I think I know lately, but with all the problems we had with ITE failures I couldn't forget them.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top