HMMMM!!!!!!

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pierre

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Westchester County, New York
I have taken many classes/seminars, in them I listen intently and have learned to read what is there!!! I have especially learned to do that at this site as well.
I have also learned that sometimes what becomes a code requirement is not necessarily what the intent really was.
Charlie's rules for reading the code :D .


Maybe that has happened here:
('05 NEC for reference)


410.4(D)Bathtub and Shower Areas.
... This zone is all encompassing and includes the zone directly over the tub or shower stall. Luminaires (lighting fixtures) located in this zone shall be listed for damp locations , or listed for wet locations where subject to shower spray.

What this tells me is that tub locations that do not have shower heads are damp locations.


404.4 Wet Locations.
Switches shall not be installed within the WET locations in tub or shower spaces unless installed as part of a listed tub or shower assembly.

Does this mean I can install a switch within a tub enclosure (area)???? ;)
 
Re: HMMMM!!!!!!

I take that to mean that the area over the stall (over about 6' high) is the damp location. Within the stall or enclosure is the wet location. It seems that if you wanted to install a switch that high up in the damp location, I guess you'd be allowed to. I'm not sure you could convince another inspector of that, though.
 
Re: HMMMM!!!!!!

Interesting catch.

We could look at it the other way.

404.4 tells us all tub spaces are wet so all fixtures will need to be wet location.
 
Re: HMMMM!!!!!!

Good question.

It does appear that would be OK as long as it is
part of a listed tub or shower assembly
I'm not sure what that would be, nor have I seen one.

Some of the whirlpool tubs have switches on them to turn pumps on, but they are usually bellows type air switches that activate a contactor or similar device. This leaves all the power issues in the control center beneath the tub.

Mike
 
Re: HMMMM!!!!!!

Originally posted by infinity:
Bob,

Define a tub space?
Click to expand...
:confused:

a zone measured 900 mm (3 ft) horizontally and 2.5 m (8 ft) vertically from the top of the bathtub rim or shower stall threshold. This zone is all encompassing and includes the zone directly over the tub or shower stall.
Click to expand...
 
Re: HMMMM!!!!!!

Bob
Very good!!! Which came first, the switch (section)or the tub enclosure (section) :D :D :D


Mdshunk
"I take that to mean that the area over the stall (over about 6' high) is the damp location. Within the stall or enclosure is the wet location."

Where do you get the measurement of 6ft from??
410.4(D) gives us a very definitive "zone".

Within a tub zone, it is now a "damp" location as per '05 NEC.


Infinity
Tubspace is defined (not in the literal sense) in 410.4(D).


Poolboy
Remember Charlie's rules...

The way it is worded, again depending on the twist that Bob has now added, is it could be a damp location, and switches are not permitted in WET locations - it does not say they are not permitted in damp locations.


Remember, that in Hydromassage tubs and plain jane tubs with no shower heads, wall sconces can be located anywhere in those spaces - why not wall switches ;) .
 
Re: HMMMM!!!!!!

Sorry Pierre, I mis-understood your question.

I was just stating that if the switch is part of a listed assy. then it would be permitted. Then again if it were part of an assy. the switch would probably be factory installed so they could obtain such a listing.

Are you just speaking of a switch in general?
 
Re: HMMMM!!!!!!

Originally posted by pierre:
Where do you get the measurement of 6ft from??
410.4(D) gives us a very definitive "zone".

Within a tub zone, it is now a "damp" location as per '05 NEC.
Click to expand...
It's not a damp location.

It's a defined area that requires fixtures listed for damp locations when you're laying out the luminaires.

When it comes time for laying out the switches, you must comply with the 404's wording. Nothing says they have to match. :)

It doesn't state the location is damp or wet. It just lays out requirements for each component.

If they were concerned about luminaires in the bathroom as a whole, as a result of some new study that showed that luminaires tended to rust out and fall on people's heads, then calling the entire room a damp location would suddenly require WP covers at the sink.

I'm playing devil's advocate. This came up at work a while back, and I thought about it some then. 2005 is an improvement over the '02's wording, but it could be argued it still has a way to go. :)
 
Re: HMMMM!!!!!!

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by infinity:
Bob,

Define a tub space?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Click to expand...
Sorry Bob,

Didn't mean to be curt, but I was trying to say that 404.4 uses the words "tub spaces" and the description provided by 410.4(D) uses "bathtub areas". Can we use these two terms interchangeably or do they refer to different things?
 
Re: HMMMM!!!!!!

George you are correct in saying that when installing switches we have to follow Art 404 (in general). But Art 404 does not define the bath tub area/space, Art 410 does. Or at least we are given some direction.

So what do we do? ;)
 
Re: HMMMM!!!!!!

I would say not within an enclouser,... area yes. To me an enclouser indicates a prefab unit and i'm not sure about that . What I dislike about 410.4 is "subject to shower spray" I have had more than job fail because I don't consider the cieling over the shower subject to shower spray. Damp yes ,wet... not in my book. I have taken many showers in my live and have never left the ceiling within the zone "saturated with water".
 
Re: HMMMM!!!!!!

I'm not sure you could convince another inspector of that, though.
Click to expand...
In my area the inspectors are pretty much no nonsence guy's. If I tried to stick a switch in a shower space I am sure I would get a smack on the back of the head and a bunch of #$.%%%!!! yelled at me.
 
Re: HMMMM!!!!!!

404.4 Wet Locations.
Switches shall not be installed within the WET locations in tub or shower spaces unless installed as part of a listed tub or shower assembly


If it has to be part of the listed assy.then the tub enclosure would have to come from the manufacturer with the switch already built in the unit,wouldn`t it ???
I for one have never seen a switch built in an enclosure for a tub but this does allow it.So I guess Kohler will be getting into the electrical supply business ;)
 
Re: HMMMM!!!!!!

I think what they are talking about is the space that is the tub in 404.4

What is the wet location of a tub?, the tub , can you mount a switch in a fiberglass tub ,... no. can a mfg. Yes as long as it is a listed assembly.

The shower space is just that , the space that is subject to the shower. Can you mount a switch on a wall subject to a shower of water .I'd say no . Can a shower enclouser be manufactured with a switch as a complete listed assembly. Yes

Can a switch be mounted outside the tub? Yes. Within reach? Yes. Same is true for shower spaces.

At least thats what I see in this.
 
Re: HMMMM!!!!!!

You guys are not getting my point. For now, repeat, for now, forget what we have been taught. Read the two sections I have posted and then tell me what it ACTUALLY says, not what you want it to say, or what you interpret it to say, but what it ACTUALLY SAYS.


Then ...tell me where does it specifically say that a switch cannot be installed in the TUB (without a shower head) zone? :D
 
Re: HMMMM!!!!!!

I'm not sure what you mean by tub zone? But if it is not a wet location I see no reason why you can't put a switch there.

410.4 is dealing with the luminaire rating in a defined zone regardless if in fact that location is damp or not . It is taking the guess work out of it . The mandatory fixture rating is not the same thing as the space being damp, it does not matter now , they will all be ,at the least ,rated for a damp location within that zone.

I think 404.4 is clear as well ,imagine a tub in your head... that is tub space .If a switch is mounted in that tub space it has to be part of a listed assembly , same thing for a shower space or that area which is showered with water or wet locations within those spaces.

I'm not sure why you think one affects the other??

One atricle for luminaires within a measured zone
One article for switches in wet locations witthin tub and shower spaces, unless put there by mfg and listed as part of a tub or shower assembly.
if this does not answer your concern try saying it a different way? I have read your posts more than once.
 
Re: HMMMM!!!!!!

Marc
410.4(D) gives us the definition per se of a tub/shower zone.

"...shall be located within a zone measured 3ft horizontally and 8ft vertically from the top of the bathtub rim or shower stall threshold."

This zone is not just where the tub or shower footprint is, but extends 3 feet further horizontally into the room from the edge of the tub rim.

It then says:
"Luminaires located in this zone shall be listed for damp locations, or listed for wet locations where subject to shower spray .

This gives us direction as to a tub with no shower as a damp location, and a tub with a shower head as a wet location.

The NEC does not say that the tub is a damp location for fixtures, and not say the same for switches. So, switches are permitted to be installed in damp locations - hence they can be installed in tub locations without a shower head.


Am I condoning this? No, just reading the NEC as written. Maybe a change in the wording is necessary. ;)
 
Re: HMMMM!!!!!!

Originally posted by pierre:
Then ...tell me where does it specifically say that a switch cannot be installed in the TUB (without a shower head) zone? :D
Click to expand...
Well, going along with the idea that the two are related, then the only wet location is in the tub. Which would mean that 404.4 is preventing us from getting out our ceramic-cutting rotozip and installing a box below the rim of the bathtub. That does not compute.

The two sections are independent of each other. What is the intent of each?

I'd say 404 is preventing someone from touching a switch that could be ground-faulting and not bonded, worst case scenario.

I'd say 410 is preventing someone from squirting an exposed bulb listed for dry locations and taking a glass shower. But that's just my opinion. ;)
 
Re: HMMMM!!!!!!

Pierre,410.4 does no such thing it creates a measured zone that pertains to the ratings of fixtures within that zone. It does not say this zone is damp in fact it makes the argument mute. It no longer matters if the area within that zone is damp ,it is no longer a consideration. And the requirements of 410.4 stay in 410 they do not affect switches or receptacles only luminaires.

[ October 24, 2005, 08:00 AM: Message edited by: marc deschenes ]
 
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