HO wants to help

[LarryFine]

AMEN! my best friend is an engineer, I don't know that he has ever started a project he wants to do he just keeps engineering it, over and over and over.

He's afraid another way to do something might pop up, so he isn't willing to commit.

My friend the EE is the same way: no commitments, no promises, no obligations.

(If you look up a**lly retentive in the dictionary, his picture is there.)

 

[weressl]

I can tell you from experience that the one group of people that you never want helping and that's engineers.

If you would substitute the word 'engineer' with Italians, Blacks or Jews, you would be considered prejudiced or racist.

In this case you are just prejudiced.

 

[DanZ]

But how much for the sketches of the hole layout plan that must be a precursor to any hole-drilling? I mean we can't just take out and start drilling can we? We must have a template or something.:grin:

What about the materials and bit studies? C'mon, seriously, we need to know what type of bit works the best for the materials! Then there are the speed studies to find out what speed the drill should be set to. Then the custom engineering of the drill transmission to set it at that speed...and we haven't even talked about the actual drilling process yet!:grin: :roll: Some of us with engineering minds can work in the real world, on occasion.

 

[growler]

If you would substitute the word 'engineer' with Italians, Blacks or Jews, you would be considered prejudiced or racist.

In this case you are just prejudiced.

I'm also an "Anti-Dentite". If you saw that episode of "Seinfeld" you will know what I"m talking about.


I have a great deal of respect for engineers when they are doing work they have been trained for and are qualified to do.

I wouldn't bother to see a proctologist when I have a tooth ache ( he may approach the problem from the wrong end ).

The old adage of "shoemaker stick to thy last" has some merit.

 

[LarryFine]

I wouldn't bother to see a proctologist when I have a tooth ache ( he may approach the problem from the wrong end ).

Or with the wrong hand.

 

[electricguy61]

If you would substitute the word 'engineer' with Italians, Blacks or Jews, you would be considered prejudiced or racist.

In this case you are just prejudiced.

It would appear from many of the comments you make on this forum that you have not worked as an electrical contractor, probably not much, if at all, as an electrician. You are often throwing in your comments when you obviously have no clue about the subject you're addressing. I would stick to my field. I wouldn't question you on electrical theory, or design, neither should you comment on the electrical business.

 

[weressl]

It would appear from many of the comments you make on this forum that you have not worked as an electrical contractor, probably not much, if at all, as an electrician. You are often throwing in your comments when you obviously have no clue about the subject you're addressing. I would stick to my field. I wouldn't question you on electrical theory, or design, neither should you comment on the electrical business.

It may appear, but you could be wrong.

Regardless, I would not make blanket statements about either your kind or any other kinds, because it is not addressing the issue.

Shouldn't comment? Who died and appointed you sheriff? I thought this forum is a free exchange of ideas, knowledge and experience. Oooh, I get it..........

Obviously? Maybe your narrow vision prohibits you from seeing other viewpoints.

 

[mivey]

It would appear from many of the comments you make on this forum that you have not worked as an electrical contractor, probably not much, if at all, as an electrician. You are often throwing in your comments when you obviously have no clue about the subject you're addressing. I would stick to my field.

I would say you are just are acting just as clueless on the other side of that coin. I have worked as both electrical contractor and engineer. You seem to be agreeing with the notion that engineers know nothing about the non-theoretical side of our field. I would tell you that you are wrong.

We joke about the difference between engineers and electricians and there is some truth to both sides of the jokes. To make a blanket statement that one dicipline knows nothing about the other shows a lack of understanding and exposure to many of the fine people that work in our field. There are, of course, exceptions to every rule.

There are many engineers who have a wealth of hands-on installation experience, even though they are not electricians. Also, there are many electricians who have a wealth of engineering knowledge although they are not engineers.

I wouldn't question you on electrical theory, or design, neither should you comment on the electrical business.

You may not, but there are many non-engineers on this forum from whom I would gladly take engineering advice. There are also many who do not hesitate to call an engineer's hand on something they think is wrong, as they should.

 

[growler]

I would say you are just are acting just as clueless on the other side of that coin. I have worked as both electrical contractor and engineer. You seem to be agreeing with the notion that engineers know nothing about the non-theoretical side of our field. I would tell you that you are wrong.

I'm sure that there are a few engineers with hands on experience in the electrical trade. I knew a lawyer that worked for years as a carpenter before passing the bar ( he just liked the work). But that really doesn't matter, if you make a business decision to not let any homeowners help out with remodeling then you will be right 90% of the time which is much better than being wrong 90% of the time.

I can easily make the statement that 90% percent of engineers don't know anything about electrical because at least 90% of those in the engineering profession don't work in the electrical field. Of those that are electrical engineers most don't work in the construction industry. Now we are down to 1 or 2% that may have actual hands on experience in the electrical trade. Why waste time trying to figure out who belongs in this very small percentage when it's just easier to say that no one is allowed to help out.

I get homeowners that tell me that they worked for a few months as an electrical helper when they were in college are as a summer job in high school but that it was 20 or 30 years ago. Most don't remember how to properly hook up a receptacle.

If an engineer does have a lot of hands on experience he is probably not going to call an electrician in the first place. He'll just get a HO permit and do the work himself which is perfectly allright and legal.

 

[mivey]

I'm sure that there are a few engineers with hands on experience in the electrical trade. I knew a lawyer that worked for years as a carpenter before passing the bar ( he just liked the work). But that really doesn't matter, if you make a business decision to not let any homeowners help out with remodeling then you will be right 90% of the time which is much better than being wrong 90% of the time.

I can easily make the statement that 90% percent of engineers don't know anything about electrical because at least 90% of those in the engineering profession don't work in the electrical field. Of those that are electrical engineers most don't work in the construction industry. Now we are down to 1 or 2% that may have actual hands on experience in the electrical trade. Why waste time trying to figure out who belongs in this very small percentage when it's just easier to say that no one is allowed to help out.

I get homeowners that tell me that they worked for a few months as an electrical helper when they were in college are as a summer job in high school but that it was 20 or 30 years ago. Most don't remember how to properly hook up a receptacle.

If an engineer does have a lot of hands on experience he is probably not going to call an electrician in the first place. He'll just get a HO permit and do the work himself which is perfectly allright and legal.

True enough. But some may have the skills and not the time. I would be willing to bet it would probably be about as bad working for an electrician. What electrician in his right mind is not going to scrutinize the work being done on his house?:smile:

 

[growler]

True enough. But some may have the skills and not the time. I would be willing to bet it would probably be about as bad working for an electrician. What electrician in his right mind is not going to scrutinize the work being done on his house?:smile:

If they don't have the time to do the job then where would they find the time to help out? I wouldn't let someone calling themself an electrican help out any sooner than I would an engineer. Here's why: Aircraft electrician, automotive electrician, railroad electrician and many others are all specialty occupations that have nothing to do with the job being done.

I know quite a bit about mechanic work but when I hire a mechanic I also know to leave him alone and let him do his job. Things just work out better that way.

I have nothing against a homeowner wiring his whole house himself. I have even been hired at service call rates to come in and check out the work before the sheet rock went up. But when a homeowner decides to hire a contractor to do the work then they need to stay out of the way.

The only thing that they can do to save any real money is to plan the job. Make sure they know what the want and where it's going. And that is the one thing they never do.

 

[ultramegabob]

True enough. But some may have the skills and not the time. I would be willing to bet it would probably be about as bad working for an electrician. What electrician in his right mind is not going to scrutinize the work being done on his house?:smile:

If I were having a house built, there is no way someone else could wire it, I would be a nightmare of a customer....

 

[electricguy61]

It may appear, but you could be wrong.

Regardless, I would not make blanket statements about either your kind or any other kinds, because it is not addressing the issue.

Shouldn't comment? Who died and appointed you sheriff? I thought this forum is a free exchange of ideas, knowledge and experience. Oooh, I get it..........

Obviously? Maybe your narrow vision prohibits you from seeing other viewpoints.

I've be called a number of things in 32 years as an electrical contractor, but narrow visioned isn't one of them. Oh well, there's a first time for every thing.

To quote you "this forum is a free exhange of ideas (OK), knowledge (what experience do you have when it comes to being an electrical contractor) and experience"(see last comment).

 

[electricguy61]

I would say you are just are acting just as clueless on the other side of that coin. I have worked as both electrical contractor and engineer. You seem to be agreeing with the notion that engineers know nothing about the non-theoretical side of our field. I would tell you that you are wrong.quote]

No, not all engineers at all. My experience is much the same as yours. This particular engineer makes comments on this forum on a regular basis that supports my feelings that he has no experience in the field (at least in the US).

I could be wrong, it happens all the time.

 

[weressl]

I would say you are just are acting just as clueless on the other side of that coin. I have worked as both electrical contractor and engineer. You seem to be agreeing with the notion that engineers know nothing about the non-theoretical side of our field. I would tell you that you are wrong.quote]

No, not all engineers at all. My experience is much the same as yours. This particular engineer makes comments on this forum on a regular basis that supports my feelings that he has no experience in the field (at least in the US).

I could be wrong, it happens all the time.

Care to cite an example, or more if you will.

Perhaps I can elaborate on my experience and you may be able to see how others can have a different experience than yours.

 

[electricguy61]

Care to cite an example, or more if you will.

Perhaps I can elaborate on my experience and you may be able to see how others can have a different experience than yours.

Here you go:

1) that brings up another question. Doesn't inspection and subsequent approval relieves the Contractor form liability of this nature?

2) OK, I can chalk up 35 years with industrial environment. Industrial environment and the benign places you mentioned can not be compared when it comes to ground current issues.

3) I think that at the end it seems to me that some sort of compromise is necessary.

I can fully understand that a small or single person operation can not afford to visit a small job, just to give you an estimate without compensation. That is true if that person is busy 12 hours a day, 5 days a week. If a person is that busy, then he can afford to hire another person, evenm just halftime and can offer to the calling HO, to 'swing by' on the way home to take a look at what he wants IF it can not be described through the phone.

If its out of the way, then he can suggest to the HO to find somebody close by.

So the end of it is, that the charge for the estimate visit should be left loose and if it is just a 10 min. stop on the way home, it should be on the house.

If the HO is out of the way and still insist to go with ya, then you can inform him that this is how much out of the way he is and this is the time and gas it will cost him for you to come out. We're talking about less that $700 or so jobs. If the job is over $1K, the estimate should be free like the big boys do it.

4) Nope, you trying to deny the basic premise of free market enterprise.

Before I commit a couple of thou$ I would like to know what am I getting for my money. Since I (the average HO) do not have in-depth knowledge of what I am buying, I need to have some comparitive idea of what price range is reasonable. With the estimate, I would also ask for an explanation of what is going to be done.

So I think every honest businessmen would try to give me a fairly detailed explanation to make me comfortable with the offering, that I get value for my money.

Fair and open competititon is the essence of free market, the foundation of the US economy. Participation in this system is voluntary. If you don't like it feel free to move somewhere else, or introduce your own system. Wish you luck in that.No better system exist on the world, yet.

The concept of the buyer have to pay for the information of what he wants to buy seems utterly ridicoulus.

There's 4 that I found in 10 minutes.

Anybody else agree with me?

 

[weressl]

Here you go:

1) that brings up another question. Doesn't inspection and subsequent approval relieves the Contractor form liability of this nature?

It was a QUESTION. I was looking for education in the matter, because I did not know what the rule is/was in that State. The Contractor ALLEGEDLY modified a large number of fixtures. The modification may have been a violation of the listing, but it was undetermined. The inspection laws and authorites are somewhat diferent in each State so the legal obligations and recourse would be different.

It seems fair to me that if the AHJ had approved the installation and the modification then he fulfilled his Contractual obligation. Mind you the installation was 2 years old at this point.

I was defending the Contractor.

I guess I can't win, can I?

Now they perhaps come along and proove in a Court of Justice that the AHJ erroneously sanctioned the modification. Then the question comes in what is the extent of liability in years in that particular State?!

 

[nc5p]

Some engineers started out working with their hands. I worked in several disciplines during my "former life". I installed business phone systems, burglar alarms, did installation and service work in television broadcasting, radio broadcasting, and industrial control systems before getting an EE degree. In fact I loved all that work so much it was hard to make proper time for school studies. That experience has given me some unique insights in my current work.

On the other hand, I know many engineers who can't hold a screwdriver. They usually got all A's in math so they went into engineering. Be very afraid of those types! Don't let them anywhere near tools.

 

[growler]

Perhaps I can elaborate on my experience and you may be able to see how others can have a different experience than yours.

Yes, please elaborate.

 

[weressl]

Here you go:

2) OK, I can chalk up 35 years with industrial environment. Industrial environment and the benign places you mentioned can not be compared when it comes to ground current issues.

There's 4 that I found in 10 minutes.

Anybody else agree with me?

Is the above statement is incorrect? If so why?

We were talking about circulating ground currents - both normal and abnormal - and their interference with certain microprocessor based equipment and the need and currency of isolated groounding.