holes in floor joists 2" apart

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Tom227 said:
the holes are 7/8" and they are about 2" center to center and there are about 10 holes in the joists
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This is one of those cases where a picture might be worth more than a thousand words, especailly with so much at stake. Any chance you can post a pic or two?
 
Guys Ryan is a competent combination inspector and if he says this is a IRC violation I have no trouble believing him.

by Ryan
This is a structural issue...and your inspector is correct. You are pretty much screwed. See Section 502.8.1 of the IRC
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That said sistering or other means short of replacement may be fine with the structural engineer.

However the buildings current owner certainly does not have to accept a fix, IMO the owner would be well within their rights to demand replacement.

I know it sucks for you Tom, perhaps you should start talking to your insurance carrier this sounds like it is going to be costly.

If your operating without insurance....well...that is IMO a very bad choice.
 
R502.8 Drilling and notching.

R508.2.1 Sawn lumber.
The diameter of holes bored or cut into members shall not exceed one-third the depth of the member. Holes shall not be closer than 2 inches to the top or bottom of the member, or to any other hole located in the member.

There is an illustration that also shows the holes have to be within the middle 1/3 of the beam, but no less than 2 inches from the bottom or top of the beam.
 
inspector23 said:
If you are indeed held responsible for replacing the members in question, perhaps you could have a licensed structural engineer provide a fix for the materials involved that would not require removing the damaged ones and replacing them with new ones.

No, the engineer might not be cheap, but it might be worth exploring to see if all the costs involved would be cost beneficial for you as an alternative to replacing everything.

In cases I have experienced, the AHJ will accept a licensed, approved engineer report that is wet signed ( not a fax or a copy) so long as it initially details the existing problem and provides clear, concise instructions for re-establishing the structural integrity.

just a thought .........
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My thoughts exactly. Hire a PE or an architect and let him look the joists and make a determination as to whether or not they are structurally weakened. We once did a job where the plumber cut away a large amount of the floor joists for a bathroom remodel. The building inspector failed the job and then architect designed a bunch of steel fishplates that were bolted to the joists to reinforce them. There should be other options beyond removing the cables and rebuilding the place
 
Trevor would you feel the same way if you where the owner of the property?

I would not, if I was paying for a new building I would not want it 'patched up' I would expect 'new'. At least not without receiving some sort of compensation for it.

Hopefully for Tom the owner will be more forgiving them I am. :)
 
That's a good point Bob, but These things do happen every day. Someone screws up and then a cost effective solution is found short of rebuilding the place. But you're right, if I owned the place I wouldn't be very happy with the Band Aid approach without some other compensation.
 
Sounds like a inspector I would want inspecting my house. I have been in the same situation with inspectors trying to find a way to plead my case only to find somthing I did did not violate NEC but some other building code that I was not aware of.Go back to the inspector and ask if their is some other fix than replacing the joist.One example I saw on a job was the plumbers needed to drill 4 1/2" holes for drain lines in the joist from the second floor.The inspector told them that if they screwed 4' pcs. of 1/2" OSB,with four screws set on 6" centers on both sides of the joist and that they drill in the center he would pass the instalation. This may be a fix you and the inspector can live with.
 
I have seen GP TGI trusses that the engineer from GP said remove the entire web in the center to run ducting.I shook my head and would not ever consider buying one but they are engineers and all I am is a dumb a@@ sparky.
 
Although I have never run into this kind of situation myself, I find it interesting to contemplate. The licensing exam I took dealt strictly with the NEC and electrical theory. While I'm not disputing the IRC rules, I've never even seen a copy of them. Seems to me that if we're responsible for following IRC rules, the licensing exam that electricians have to take should at least make a mention of it.
 
Maybe something like plywood gussets glued and bolted/screwed extending past the drilled hole area on either side by 2 or 3 feet.

I'm sure there's a modest cost solution short of replacement that will restore (or better) original strength.
 
I just read this through for the first time. I've seen TGI's cut completely out for plumbing, and the framers just boxed it in and used some hurricane clips.

Surely a not-too-expensive solution can be had for this predicament.
Pierre said:
If this is traditional lumber, and the holes are drilled in the middle of the beam, I cannot see how this is a framing violation. Maybe you drilled too low along the bottom portion of the beam.
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Pierre, from your next post:
R508.2.1 Sawn lumber.
The diameter of holes bored or cut into members shall not exceed one-third the depth of the member. Holes shall not be closer than 2 inches to the top or bottom of the member, or to any other hole located in the member.
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I don't know if you were correcting yourself or maybe missed it when you posted it. Just throwing that up there for clarity's sake. :)
 
Tom227 said:
the holes are 7/8" and they are about 2" center to center and there are about 10 holes in the joists
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Truth be told, I have done the same thing and passed inspection. In fact, I drilled more holes and they were even closer together. Not even the GC, who also framed the home, raised an issue with it.

Now, granted, I was not there for the building inspection so I have no idea if the framing inspector saw it, but it passed.
 
Hello everyone,
Thank you again for all your help with my situation. I thought maybe I should update you on how everything turned out (with the 1st house). The only way that he would allow plating of the joists, or leaving it, as is, is if I had an engineer sign off on it, he doesn't want to risk liabilty. But, he allowed me to sister the joists. I had to remove all my wires and drill new holes and then re-run all my homeruns. It took all day, but its done, and it passed. And I was able to work out a trade with the builder for some work he needed on another house, so, it didn't cost me a great deal of money, just time. As far as the other two houses go, he hasn't inspected them yet. They are in the crawlspace and I hope he doesn't see them.
Tom
 
Tisk,Tisk,Tisk :wink: Out of sight out of mind right :wink: One thing amazes me.We as electricians are also supposed to be engineers.The architect will have plans for all this fancy switching,dedicated circuits etc. but there is no provision to get power to this area.I remember a home that was a 5,000 sq custom that there were para lams that boxed off the garage/panel area I tried to get the GC to allow a chase but he said no way so we had to go up and over and down with everything.The shop flipped when i started ordering 1000`s of feet of wire.I even upsized HR`S for the runs.The Resi. MGR. at the time came out and said holly S$#T.BTW the home owner came by when almost done and asked why all this wiring was going so far :shock: I said because the GC said that you wouldn`t want a chase.He said it`s a garage why would I care :evil: Architects have such wonderfull programs but can`t overlay what they design as to what is going to be installed.Great lighting lay out but why is that vent where my can light has to go.All trades have to deal with this I saw a home where the scissor trusses had a chase but dead in the middle was the plumbing for a bath room but this was the area where the mechanical air return was to go.But don`t restrict the flow when there is a tub trap and a drain line in the same area as a close fitted return :roll: Some one yell CALGON take me away :D
 
They are in the crawlspace and I hope he doesn't see them.
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If the inpsector is a professional, and you approach situations as "out of sight-out of mind", I fear you will have a long bumpy ride in his area.
If the siutaution exists in the other houses, even out of sight, you would do well to enhance your reputation to address it and assure him that you did so.
 
jeff43222 said:
Although I have never run into this kind of situation myself, I find it interesting to contemplate. The licensing exam I took dealt strictly with the NEC and electrical theory. While I'm not disputing the IRC rules, I've never even seen a copy of them. Seems to me that if we're responsible for following IRC rules, the licensing exam that electricians have to take should at least make a mention of it.
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Do you do commercial? Do you think your licensing exam should test you on what items require emergency power, which items require standby power, where emergency illumination is required and where exit signage is required?
 
Years ago I bought the building code so that I could find the answers to situations like you describe. I'd advise every electrician to own one. As Ryan said emergincy lighting and exit sign requirements are covered in building code. As are smoke detectors, fire alarm requirements, etc.

If I read OP correctly, holes were 2" apart, at least 2" from top or bottom of joists. If this is dimensional lumber and holes are in end third of span, it is legal. At least in MA, I don't have IRC with me, but I'd think requirements were similar.

If what you described is not legal (maybe I missed something?) I would certainly repair other 2 houses.
 
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