Home inspections

[cschmid]

let take an example here was in basement with little higher then normal moister it needed a dehumidifier. furnace had rust spots on it and home owner was really upset at the furnace company because they replaced the guts of the furnace and the Home inspector stated the furnace was in poor condition and she lost the sale. So she had to install a new furnace because the HI bad mouthed it so all the money on the repairs on the furnace was wasted even though the furnace would of lasted another ten years. So I do not know why a lot of you think HI's are doing our trade justice when that is not the case.

You do not think this is an issue for our profession?

 

[nakulak]

home inspectors are doing a service. the service is to find out obvious deficiencies so that buyers can jack sellers on selling prices for houses. Just like electricians, plumbers, lawyers, doctors, congressmen, and presidents, there are good home inspectors and bad ones. I believe Its obvious to everyone with a brain that there are deficiencies to the training provided to these individuals, primarily due to the fact that this is an emerging industry. Just like combo inspectors, these guys will never catch everything wrong with a house (in my opinion), and the more training they get the better things will be. In the mean time, you are just going to have to deal with it, because it is extremely doubtful that they are going away. Keep one thing in mind: homeowners are not limited to just hiring a home inspector for these type of inspections. My bro in law is a civil engineer (PE) that does professional inspections for commercial customers for this purpose; but very few homeowners are going to pay that kind of money. (just my 2 cents)

 

[pfalcon]

The HI is not being paid to do electrical work nor furnace work nor plumbing work, etc. They are looking for excessive wear & tear, poor workmanship, shoddy materials, and outright damage.

I've bought a lot of property and use HIs all the time. Working with them is just like working with any other professional inspector. If they find something then you notify the seller; they can challenge or surrender. If it gets deep then you can walk away or hire the specific trade for an in-depth inspection of the complaint. Use the HI poorly and you get poor results.

We don't need any local, state, or federal government program doing certifications. Go to your home insurance agent and get an HI from them. They have a stake in your getting a good house. Let the insurance company "qualify" inspectors.

Here are two popular sayings:
I'm from the government and I'm here to help.
Government: If you think the problems we create are bad; just wait till you see our solutions.

Big government people don't think they're funny and small government people don't think they're jokes.

 

[cschmid]

let me see if I got this correct you believe that this profession should grow and flourish. They have a real benefit to the industry and are necessary for sale of properties. we should allow the insurance industry and government dictate the way we buy and sell real estate.

So when the HI does electrical tests and renders opinions on issue that are regulated by state statues and we have sworn an oath the uphold these regulations, there is no problem here.

I guess I am not conveying my concerns here.

When the the HI perform electrical test and render opinions about electrical they are breaking the law. The HI is not licensed to do electrical work for money. So you are okay with this; so where do you draw the line and why cant the HVAC installer just run the circuit for the new furnace and AC unit? Why not just let the plumber run the new circuit for the new water heater? Why not just let the sign installer run the whole circuit for the neon sign? What really is the difference then. I think the it is a double standard you agree with.

 

[cowboyjwc]

let me see if I got this correct you believe that this profession should grow and flourish. They have a real benefit to the industry and are necessary for sale of properties. we should allow the insurance industry and government dictate the way we buy and sell real estate.

So when the HI does electrical tests and renders opinions on issue that are regulated by state statues and we have sworn an oath the uphold these regulations, there is no problem here.

I guess I am not conveying my concerns here.

When the the HI perform electrical test and render opinions about electrical they are breaking the law. The HI is not licensed to do electrical work for money. So you are okay with this; so where do you draw the line and why cant the HVAC installer just run the circuit for the new furnace and AC unit? Why not just let the plumber run the new circuit for the new water heater? Why not just let the sign installer run the whole circuit for the neon sign? What really is the difference then. I think the it is a double standard you agree with.

Actually it would depend on where you are from, here the things you have noted can be done by the contractors you also noted.

Many HI's are GC's making some extra money, if they were qualified to build a hous I would think that they are qualified to inspect a house.

I do some electrical HI's for an HI, not that hard to say, GFCI's weren't required when the house was built, but I would suggest that they be installed at the following locations. A good HI will come into the Building and Safety office and pull the address file and make sure that any work that was done had a permit.

The only time I have a problem with HI's is when they say that something is required when it is not. Zinsco panel must be replaced as it is a fire hazard.

I'm no longer licensed to install electrical for money, but I inspect it, I don't believe that makes me any less qualified than you, in fact I still have my license (inactive) and a ceritification as an electrical inspector. So since you don't have a cert that say's you're an electrical inspector, does that mean you shouldn't be allowed to say what is and isn't to code?

 

[cschmid]

Are you talking about entire circuits or just disconnecting one appliance and connecting another? what is your opinion on that issue do you agree or disagree? wait that is purely a yes and no answer..So do you feel the electrical industry is moving in the right direction with the allowing of others who do not meet the requirement to collect money for electrical consulting and design? and if you diagnose and suggest a repair is that a form or consulting and design or what do you feel constitutes consulting and design?

 

[Pierre C Belarge]

I cannot speak for the country, but in our neck of the woods (NY), HIs are required to take courses and pass a test, then they are required to take CEUs. In NY this is not so for electricians or electrical inspectors. Except for local jurisdictions, a dog can pull wire in NY. My Aunt's second cousin of a long lost uncle, who had a brother that was an electrician, could do electrical work.

EIs are not all good at what they do...
Electricians are not all good at what they do...
HIs are not all good at what they do...

But...
There are plenty of the above who are good at what they do. Remember, that HIs are not all bad, and they do have a function. I have seen them do good work and save a few people from walking into a house sale that would not have been good.
In NY, the HI company is liable for certain items if missed, so they do not go around the house without snooping in every corner, closet, attic, basement, crawl space, and roof...even the yard.

 

[cowboyjwc]

Are you talking about entire circuits or just disconnecting one appliance and connecting another? what is your opinion on that issue do you agree or disagree? wait that is purely a yes and no answer..So do you feel the electrical industry is moving in the right direction with the allowing of others who do not meet the requirement to collect money for electrical consulting and design? and if you diagnose and suggest a repair is that a form or consulting and design or what do you feel constitutes consulting and design?

Don't know if I have all the answers for you, but yes I was talking about the entire circuit, a GC can also do electrical work, but cannot pull a permit if that is the primary work, he must also be doing two additional trades.

I don't know that I agree or disagree, as Pierre said there are some bad EC's out there that shouldn't be doing electrical work either. That being said, we may not like it, but we might as well get used to it. HD vs. CSLB, HD won, they can install garage door openers, solar, AC and the like and the related electrical for them.

I believe that consulting is consulting and designing is designing. If I tell someone that they should install GFCI's, I'm consulting. If I draw a diagram of how to install them, then I'm designing.

There was a thread the other day about patching drywall, here in CA there is a C9 Drywall Contractors license, if you patch drywall are you working outside of your classification? If you get paid to patch it are you not taking work away from another trade? It's a fine line we walk sometimes.

 

[pfalcon]

let me see if I got this correct you believe that this profession should grow and flourish. They have a real benefit to the industry and are necessary for sale of properties. we should allow the insurance industry and government dictate the way we buy and sell real estate.

So when the HI does electrical tests and renders opinions on issue that are regulated by state statues and we have sworn an oath the uphold these regulations, there is no problem here.

I guess I am not conveying my concerns here.

When the the HI perform electrical test and render opinions about electrical they are breaking the law. The HI is not licensed to do electrical work for money. So you are okay with this; so where do you draw the line and why cant the HVAC installer just run the circuit for the new furnace and AC unit? Why not just let the plumber run the new circuit for the new water heater? Why not just let the sign installer run the whole circuit for the neon sign? What really is the difference then. I think the it is a double standard you agree with.

Yes, I believe HI should grow and flourish. Yes, I believe the insurance industry should be more involved which, oh by the way, is partly where the NEC came from. No, I don't believe government should be involved.

You falsely presume that anything electrical requires an electrician. The HI should be pushing GFCI test buttons. Many prospective HOs don't know enough to punch them. They should be wandering around with simple plug testers to check polarity and grounding. None of this is breaking the law. The point of an HI is to act as a knowledgeable HO with a checklist that the typical HO would never have compiled.

You actually expressed the line. Simple inspection is not trades work. And he is not acting for the seller but the buyer. If the HI says the panel should be replaced for whatever reason then I have a choice - (1) walk away from the buy, or (2) hire an electrician to confirm and cost it, or (3) convince the seller to drop the price where I'll assume the risk.

Why should the insurance company be involved? Because they're the ones who will be insuring my home. It's their money too; unless you believe people with money at stake should have no say in things.

Why should I use an HI instead of a fully licensed electrician? Because I can afford an HI at lower hourly rates to do a simple inspection of ten different areas of the home. I can't afford ten different tradespeople at higher rates to do in-depth work on every home I might buy.

The HI will cost his rate for a couple hours.
The trades people will cost a couple hours each for (1) Electrician, (2) Plumber, (3) Heating and Air, (4) Roofing, (5) Foundation, (6) Construction (structural), (7) Lawyer, (8) Environmental, ad nauseum.

You mentioned a lady that wasted money on repairs of a furnace. She could have challenged the HI report with her receipts. You mentioned an HI that said someone must replace an electrical panel because the brand was suspect. Nonsense, his report recommends the buyer not purchase without taking the price of upgrading that panel into consideration. Which takes us back to those three choices of the buyer - Walk, Quote, or Negotiate. The HI cannot block a sale.

 

[electricmanscott]

Aside from the pros and cons, (I am pro home inspector) the op asked for opinions. It looks more to me that the op is looking for opinions that he agrees with.

In my opinion Home inspector is not a code inspector and is not doing electrical work.

They can give opinions, unlike code inspectors, they also rarely have any 'authority' to force their opinions on anyone.

I agree with this 100%

 

[c2500]

Well, I generally hold HI's in low regard. In SC, you are an HI if you are an architect (go figure), a licensed residential builder (which I am) or have taken a course, passed a test and do whatever else the state wants.

I have seen to many cases where the HI misssed HUGE things while nit-picking that a GFCI is required for the exterior outlet in a 40 year old home with no electrical upgrades.

The HI's only liability is the price the HO paid him. While I will say there are some good HI's, I feel most lack the depth of knowledge to effective do the job.

Tragically, I could site example after example of what HI's missed.

c2500

 

[cschmid]

LMAO I am looking for opinion and if they matched mine then they would not be objective opinions would they.

Now I like the discussion we have now because we can see a few areas that are questionable.

So do you believe it is right that an HVAC installer can install the whole circuit? I believe he should be allowed to remove and install the new furnace/ac unit to existing wiring as long as it is inspected.

The amount of electrical work being allowed to be performed outside of our industry is growing and that is money out of our pockets. I do understand it is a fine line.

Yet where do we make a stand before or after they take away business?

I do not believe HI's should grow or flourish and I also do not believe we should be allowing the expansion of electrical work to non electrical contractors.

So If you believe I am looking for opinion the same as mine, maybe but I would be foolish to expect that and even foolisher to only encourage that. How would anything positive be gained from like opinions.

How would we learn how other states handle these gray areas. Like I did not know Hi's actually had liability in New York and that GC in CA can do electrical work just can not pull a permit.

I do not know how HI's charge in other areas either. I know here it is normally 350.00 fee or more. I am curious then If a HI inspects why should you have to sign all these release forms for areas he is inspecting. Is that not a waste of time and money. As for me I inspect my own properties as it is my money being invested.

 

[triplstep]

The largest problem with the home inspection business is that to be successful, (read profitable), they have to be in bed with Realtors.

Bottom line for a Realtor is make the deal. Sell the property. Many inspectors get referred by either the buying or selling agent. Too many HI's play the game. This is where the failure occurs.

 

[BMacky]

While you're on the subject...

While you're on the subject...

I was asked to give an inspection of a home's wiring for an insurance company. The buyer will not be able to get homeowner's insurance unless he presents the potential insurer with a letter from a licensed electrical contractor stating the wiring is sound.

Any of you guys ever been approached and had the %@!!s to sign your name to a letter stating your thumb's-up on some old knob & tube??? Or someone else's handiwork for that matter?

Would love to get some ideas/feedback/humor from the field. Thanks!


Bob

 

[ptrip]

The last home I sold was 5 years old ... I had bought it when it was 4 years old without inspection. [Graduated college, got job, bought house, got transferred ... wonderful. ]

The HI gave me a 3 page list of "problems".

I was able to explain away or rationalize all of the "problems" to the buyer without a penny spent. I guess I have to be appreciative that they were logical folks.

One item that still sticks in my head that he mentioned...

We had a new water heater sitting in the basement, still in it's crate. Back story was that we found this unit at deep discount so they could clear inventory space ... 55 gallon brand name electric water heater for $25! We bought it. Figured it wouldn't go bad in the basement and we could change it out in 10 years when the other one went bad (or even hook it up in series for extra long showers if we wanted!)

Inspector said we needed to change out the water heaters because obviously something was wrong with the current one since there was a new one down there! (no water leaks, water got hot ...)

We just had to explain the backstory to the buyers ... all was well.

Other items:

There's no pipe to the outside from the stove exhaust (it was a recirculating hood). :roll:

Install a GFI in bathroom receptacle (it was a GFI breaker...not best, but not dangerous).

I can't remember anything else on the list offhand ... but, after the contract was complete, I was able to laugh about it!

My two cents ... Some HIs are good, some are bad ... all are OPINIONS and should be taken as such. Joe-Schmoe home buyer is paying somebody with more experience with houses than he has to look at and point out some of the most common/costly issues that might arise. I've never thought to consider it a safety inspection. Maybe more people need to think like me!

 

[cschmid]

I want to get people to think outside the box here. This is not a bash HI thread this is about other professions regulating us out of work.

HI's only inspect the obvious which does make it a safety inspection.

So we are letting other professions regulate us out of jobs. Why?

We need to think outside of the box once in awhile and ask why instead of just complying. Because not all decisions by someone else are correct and we do not know about every decision until someone else makes it.

Just like I do not agree with sewage pumps being on GFCI's because the potential hazard from raw sewage has more costly health effects and effects a higher number off people. If the pump is wired correctly it will trip on a fault. GFCI's do go bad and are not properly maintained so it has a higher failure rate then the pump does; which creates an unnecessary hazard. So we can look at several points of view here on an issue like this. This is an on going issue and I believe the NEC has it wrong.

SO why again do we allow others who are unqualified do electrical work? do you believe it is okay to allow anyone in a 200 amp panel?

I really am just looking for a good discussion and to encourage a real look at some of the gray areas.

 

[iwire]

I want to get people to think outside the box here. This is not a bash HI thread this is about other professions regulating us out of work.

So you're solution is what?

Would you have a buyer have to hire an electrician, a plumber, a roofer, a Carpenter each for each inspection.

As an EC what would you have to charge to inspect a home, what would the other trades charge.

Money wise I do not see that as even remotely possible, we need inexpensive generalists not high priced specialists to do home inspections.

 

[brian john]

I was asked to give an inspection of a home's wiring for an insurance company. The buyer will not be able to get homeowner's insurance unless he presents the potential insurer with a letter from a licensed electrical contractor stating the wiring is sound.

Any of you guys ever been approached and had the %@!!s to sign your name to a letter stating your thumb's-up on some old knob & tube??? Or someone else's handiwork for that matter?

Would love to get some ideas/feedback/humor from the field. Thanks!


Bob

We do this regularly, we do the inspection and TESTING and write a letter with stipulations.

Such as; the electrical system was visually inspected and all conductors were meggered, the conductors meets applicable standards BUT this is system while colmplying with the NEC at the time of installation..........and what you feel at this point.

 

[cschmid]

Bob my one of my points are is you have to sign releases guaranteeing the quality of most items. Like no structural defects, mold, and others.. so why then do you need an HI? If you are signing releases without having the proper tests then you are liable. So why let someone who is not qualify bash your house?

You should have your furnace checked yearly so whats wrong with the report from that on the condition of your furnace and HVAC system? If you can not produce a furnace inspection report then that says something right there.

It is pretty common knowledge that a GFCI is required in the kitchen, bathroom and outside as it has been a requirement for over 25 years now (do not know the exact date) but it is common knowledge.

Again I say you sign a release form garunteeing that there is no structural defects and no mold issues and there are more releases that need to be signed or at least in this state there is, so the seller has responsibility.

All the HI does is take money from the seller in more ways then one. So is the HI going to eliminate the need for releases and relieve the home owners responsibility? If no then again why should the HI be allowed to cause the home owner to loose cash on a sale or cost the owner a sale and not be responsible.

If there is a concern on the electrical then have an inspection I remember reading that there are inspectors looking for something to do? So go ahead and let the unqualified do your work who is loosing? at least if a qualified person inspected the home he could actually see if there are real safety hazards.

So my question is again why do we allow other to keep taking work from us?

 

[cschmid]

We do this regularly, we do the inspection and TESTING and write a letter with stipulations.

Such as; the electrical system was visually inspected and all conductors were meggered, the conductors meets applicable standards BUT this is system while colmplying with the NEC at the time of installation..........and what you feel at this point.

Now see Brian is after cash and is willing to go after the cash and I would assume he even advertises but that is an assumption..