Home inspections

[milehiwire]

These threads often turn into lessons taught in the great literature of the past.

Reminds me of, ?Lord of the Flies?. I think HI?s could be equated here by some to ?The Beast????.

A nonexistent enemy to be feared.

 

[roger]

Actually, the local school district would probably love the heck out of you if you turned your house into a math lab !

I don't think they would be happy at all, they would probably be mad that some non-professional was taking work from them.

Roger

 

[nakulak]

Is that a real picture of you nakulak?

Dang! I thought I was funny looking.

I thought it was a well known fact that this was my real picture. Someone else posted it as a joke a while back, as it was apparently floating around the internet surreptitiously. There's nothing quite like that to make you feel like a cheap whore. Be that as it may, what you see is what you get.

 

[cschmid]

Actually, the local school district would probably love the heck out of you if you turned your house into a math lab !

LOL I doubt I am going to compete with local school district and I see I must do better job of proofing.

math was suppose to be meth lab.. my bad..

Come to think of it my math is good 2+2=4 4+4=8 8+8=a party

 

[pfalcon]

interesting. the forms are pretty much the same here only ever known one person to go to court and it was over a roof issue and they won got new roof out of deal.

hee hee hee. It can be done but usually it requires the problem be really flagrant and the homeowner didn't check the box saying it had a problem. Usually "I don't know" gets them a free pass.

HI's already are organized and some states regulate them some even make them have a liability rate. soon they will be making inspections on commercial properties as well.

I'm opposed to regulation. They'll have the HI check for green compliance instead of problems. The rate will also jump through the roof.

I still think allowing other trades to get into running circuits, inspecting and recommending solutions is wrong.

As I said in an earlier post, the HI is supposed to be acting as an intelligent HO. This means surface inspections like GFCI test buttons, Receptacle testers, and noticing the service panel is falling off the wall. He has no qualification to crack the front panel, run wiring, or demand any electrical work to be done. He is supposed to recommend actions to the buyer based on his practiced knowledge.

You mentioned a furnace in an earlier post. The HI statement should have been "The furnace shows excessive corrosion on the outside. I recommend you get a furnace repairman to look at it before you make a decision."

I will try my best in MN to stop the progression of other trades from opening up panels to install circuits and having unqualified inspectors from making recommendations. the best I can do I find it Ironic the double standard.

Yes to the first; No to the second.

A cursory look at the panel and breakers by opening the hinged door is fine. Removing the front panel is not acceptable. I'm sure some HIs would try but I haven't run into any yet. I would upset if my HI did remove the front plate.

I do expect my HI to make recommendations. Many will be things like "I found dead receptacles in these rooms, and there are signs of a roof leak in the master bedroom." In short, I expect the HI to inform me where he feels it is in my best interest to escalate the inspection.

 

[cschmid]

interesting..if you purchase house and the outlets are dead and require an electrician to repair the previous home owner is liable..I do not know does not cover gross negligence..

The double standard is not just with HI's. they are with other trades as well. like HVAC installers should be allowed to disconnect a furnace and reconnect it. Yet they should not be allowed to run a complete new circuit which requires taking the panel face off..

SO if the carpenter comes into your house and puts wains coating in your living room; is he allowed to remove the receptacles and reinstall them?

or you decide to redo your ceilings is the sheet rock guy able to remove the lights and reinstall them?

how about if the owner decides to change the lights location can the sheet rock or carpenter do that? who is gonna know..

So now back to the original question where do you cross the line? the sheet rock guy who repositions the lights crosses the line..So how do you address the gray areas and do we continue to allow the gray areas to be converted to general use areas such as allowing HVAC, Sheet Rock guys (never seen a gal doing sheet rock so my apologies if I generalized), and professions like HI's giving design advice or repair advice. it does seem harmless enough but yet it keeps growing where do we stop it? or just let the generals take the home housing market right away..

 

[pfalcon]

interesting..if you purchase house and the outlets are dead and require an electrician to repair the previous home owner is liable..I do not know does not cover gross negligence...
...So now back to the original question where do you cross the line?...

Remember that the role of an HI is not home repair. The HI role is to flag potential problems and notify a buyer or lender. The potential problem then becomes an issue in negotiating the price of the home or the amount of the loan.

Frankly the line is or should be the same that you apply to the HO. Why would you permit a klutzy HO to replace an outlet but tell a drywall crew they can't? The drywall crew assumes liability for their work.

 

[macmikeman]

I have made sacks of money because of home inspectors. Some of the things they put into the reports are valid. Some of the things they put in the reports are invalid. . But many rewire jobs have resulted from HI reports regarding such things as lack of grounded circuits and K+T wiring in which the owner's of the property made up their minds to get the work done based on the HI report, before ever calling me to price the jobs. Thank you free sales force......

 

[electricmanscott]

interesting..if you purchase house and the outlets are dead and require an electrician to repair the previous home owner is liable..I do not know does not cover gross negligence..

The double standard is not just with HI's. they are with other trades as well. like HVAC installers should be allowed to disconnect a furnace and reconnect it. Yet they should not be allowed to run a complete new circuit which requires taking the panel face off..

SO if the carpenter comes into your house and puts wains coating in your living room; is he allowed to remove the receptacles and reinstall them?

or you decide to redo your ceilings is the sheet rock guy able to remove the lights and reinstall them?

how about if the owner decides to change the lights location can the sheet rock or carpenter do that? who is gonna know..

So now back to the original question where do you cross the line? the sheet rock guy who repositions the lights crosses the line..So how do you address the gray areas and do we continue to allow the gray areas to be converted to general use areas such as allowing HVAC, Sheet Rock guys (never seen a gal doing sheet rock so my apologies if I generalized), and professions like HI's giving design advice or repair advice. it does seem harmless enough but yet it keeps growing where do we stop it? or just let the generals take the home housing market right away..

It's tough to discuss the situation. You are all over the place here.

 

[cschmid]

how am I all over the place..Where do you draw the line? I have used all kinds of examples not all over the place. everyone thinks this is just an attack on HI's but I have ask several times the same question just in different forms..

 

[electricmanscott]

how am I all over the place..Where do you draw the line? I have used all kinds of examples not all over the place. everyone thinks this is just an attack on HI's but I have ask several times the same question just in different forms..

You are asking too many questions and applying the same answer to them.

What a home inspector does, (which is NOT electrical work) is not the same as an HVAC guy wiring a new circuit.

 

[infinity]

I have made sacks of money because of home inspectors. Some of the things they put into the reports are valid. Some of the things they put in the reports are invalid. . But many rewire jobs have resulted from HI reports regarding such things as lack of grounded circuits and K+T wiring in which the owner's of the property made up their minds to get the work done based on the HI report, before ever calling me to price the jobs. Thank you free sales force......

I've made money from them too. Actually you can make money whether they're right or wrong. Typically the seller needs to hire an EC to either fix or contradict the findings in the report. Either way the EC makes money. Bad thing is that someitmes the HO ends up paying for something that was never an issue in the first place.

 

[pfalcon]

I have made sacks of money because of home inspectors. Some of the things they put into the reports are valid. Some of the things they put in the reports are invalid. . But many rewire jobs have resulted from HI reports regarding such things as lack of grounded circuits and K+T wiring in which the owner's of the property made up their minds to get the work done based on the HI report, before ever calling me to price the jobs. Thank you free sales force......

And this is a good thing.

They are supposed to flag things that may become an issue for the future owner or lender. This means they are not limited to flagging violations or actual problems. They are also supposed to report major features such as electric/gas heat and how many shingle layers there are.

 

[iwire]

And this is a good thing.

They are supposed to flag things that may become an issue for the future owner or lender. This means they are not limited to flagging violations or actual problems. They are also supposed to report major features such as electric/gas heat and how many shingle layers there are.

I agree 100%

When a buyer hires an HI they are not asking for list of all possible code violations they are asking for a report about the general condition of the house and how it compares to other homes.

 

[pfalcon]

I've made money from them too. Actually you can make money whether they're right or wrong. Typically the seller needs to hire an EC to either fix or contradict the findings in the report. Either way the EC makes money.

Again. This is a good thing.

When the issue is beyond the HI to properly evaluate he should flag it as an issue. This prompts an in-depth inspection by the expert trade.

Bad thing is that sometimes the HO ends up paying for something that was never an issue in the first place.

Bad is perspective. cschmid mentioned a furnace that was a rustbucket on the outside but overhauled on the inside. Not a real problem. But the HI should flag that furnace as an issue. This forces the HO trying to sell it to produce proof that the furnace is sound. As a buyer I want the HI to flag such a condition. Then I know to dig deeper on the furnace. Maybe I don't trust furnace overhauls. Maybe the HO voided any warranty on it. I now want to see the paperwork and make my own decision as a buyer. Or as cschmid's HO did - you can replace the furnace and it's no longer an issue.

The real estate agent works for himself. Lower the price; Up the bid; Make problems go away.

The HI works for the buyer. Tell me where I need to dig deeper to uncover issues important to me. They don't have to be problems; just things I might not want in a house.

 

[nakulak]

The real estate agent works for himself. Lower the price; Up the bid; Make problems go away.
.

not trying to be difficult, but I just wanted to point out the fact that this is an often misunderstood myth, and it can cost you money not knowing exactly who "your real estate agent" is working for.

It varies by state, but where I live the listing agent works exclusively for the seller, and being the seller's agent, is legally responsible to act in the seller's interest, and only the seller's interest. Now if you have an agent working for you trying to find you a property, that agent may be looking out for your interest, but if the agent happens to work for the agency that is listing the property, it may turn out that the agent is actually working for the seller, and not looking out for your interest's at all.

my only point is, know the laws in your area, and know who your agent is responsible to - otherwise it could end up costing you a bundle a some point in time.

 

[pfalcon]

not trying to be difficult, but I just wanted to point out the fact that this is an often misunderstood myth, and it can cost you money not knowing exactly who "your real estate agent" is working for.

It varies by state, but where I live the listing agent works exclusively for the seller, and being the seller's agent, is legally responsible to act in the seller's interest, and only the seller's interest. Now if you have an agent working for you trying to find you a property, that agent may be looking out for your interest, but if the agent happens to work for the agency that is listing the property, it may turn out that the agent is actually working for the seller, and not looking out for your interest's at all.

my only point is, know the laws in your area, and know who your agent is responsible to - otherwise it could end up costing you a bundle a some point in time.

No difficulty. Here each agent must inform you whether they are the "Seller's agent", "Buyer's agent", or both. There are regulations for what they can and cannot disclose as well as a bunch of other stuff. I've signed my name on over 70 mortgages for both purchase and sale. The dual agents are bound so tight they can't function well. I only use dedicated agents now.

Bottom line: They only get paid if a sale takes place.

 

[cschmid]

You are asking too many questions and applying the same answer to them.

What a home inspector does, (which is NOT electrical work) is not the same as an HVAC guy wiring a new circuit.

I have not applied an answer here..I keep asking where the gray line is?

I see no difference in a person (who ever) that is not an electrician that comes in and performs an electrical test with a meter and says that the voltage drop is wrong and you need to have this circuit split in half and made 2 circuits and a HVAC installing a circuit for his new AC unit. They are both electrical work done by unlicensed individuals. The law reads if you accept cash for electrical work you must be a licensed electrician. that is paraphrased.

I agree 100%

When a buyer hires an HI they are not asking for list of all possible code violations they are asking for a report about the general condition of the house and how it compares to other homes.

This I disagree with it is not compared to other homes. The HI is biased and does not work for the home owner he works for the seller and once this report is generated it is on file at real estate office. So if it is negative and it normally is so buyer can negotiate with seller a seller loss. This taints opinions of all the agents associated with the real estate property.

Again. This is a good thing.

When the issue is beyond the HI to properly evaluate he should flag it as an issue. This prompts an in-depth inspection by the expert trade.



Bad is perspective. cschmid mentioned a furnace that was a rustbucket on the outside but overhauled on the inside. Not a real problem. But the HI should flag that furnace as an issue. This forces the HO trying to sell it to produce proof that the furnace is sound. As a buyer I want the HI to flag such a condition. Then I know to dig deeper on the furnace. Maybe I don't trust furnace overhauls. Maybe the HO voided any warranty on it. I now want to see the paperwork and make my own decision as a buyer. Or as cschmid's HO did - you can replace the furnace and it's no longer an issue.

The real estate agent works for himself. Lower the price; Up the bid; Make problems go away.

The HI works for the buyer. Tell me where I need to dig deeper to uncover issues important to me. They don't have to be problems; just things I might not want in a house.

No we get to the problem how many people do we need taking a cut in the property? You believe an agent is worth 7% of a 150,000 dollar house = 10,500 dollars plus the loss of income due to a HI report. Now ask your self how do we afford a used home? When do we call enough enough. how many more hands in the pot.

So if your house is worth an appraised value how much more do you think it is worth? Where do you draw the line? I believe we should start with what the law says if you do electrical work you need a license that is why the rule makers phrased it that way.

so my question is where do we draw the line what is electrical work? Is testing electrical circuits and recommending a plan of action electrical work? and why? Is removing lights and reinstalling them electrical work? And why? Is relocating them electrical work? and why? is installing a circuit for an HVAC unit electrical work? and why?

I want us to think about this seriously as industries grow and develop it seems like they keep giving loop holes and regulating our industry more. Why?

 

[infinity]

Bad thing is that someitmes the HO ends up paying for something that was never an issue in the first place.

Bad is perspective.

Bad isn't always perspective sometimes bad is just bad. My friend was buying a house where the HI put in the report that all of the receptacles weren't properly grounded. The buyer insisted that they all be inspected. So the seller had to pay for the electrician to open every receptacle and check and see if it were grounded. Turns out that the house was wired in AC cable and when the HI didn't see a ground wire on a couple of devices he flagged them all as not properly grounded. So if you're the seller his mistake is pretty bad because it ended up unnecessarily costing him money.

 

[iwire]

I see no difference in a person (who ever) that is not an electrician that comes in and performs an electrical test with a meter and says that the voltage drop is wrong and you need to have this circuit split in half and made 2 circuits and a HVAC installing a circuit for his new AC unit. They are both electrical work done by unlicensed individuals. The law reads if you accept cash for electrical work you must be a licensed electrician. that is paraphrased.

I see a huge difference and so does the law here.

Here the law requires an electrical license to charge money to install electric equipment, not to look at it, not to test it and not to give an opinion about it.

This I disagree with it is not compared to other homes. The HI is biased and does not work for the home owner he works for the seller and once this report is generated it is on file at real estate office.

You lost me, the seller is the home owner.

So if it is negative and it normally is so buyer can negotiate with seller a seller loss.

You lost me here as well, would you want to hide any defects or short comings of the property so the buyer gets ripped off?

I believe we should start with what the law says if you do electrical work you need a license that is why the rule makers phrased it that way.

Can you post a link to you're local rule?

Is removing lights and reinstalling them electrical work? And why? Is relocating them electrical work? and why? is installing a circuit for an HVAC unit electrical work? and why?

What has that got to do with HIs?