home inspector fails house with Aluminum wiring

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Stevenfyeager said:
A home inspector just failed a house with aluminum wiring because all the outlets, switches, and light fixtures are not AL rated. He is saying all the devices have to be replaced with AL-Cu types. And all the light fixtures have to have the barrel AL-Cu connectors. Is the seller responsible to pay to have this done? AL devices are about $3 apiece, and the labor for every junction in the whole house would be expensive. Thank you.
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Mark A. said:
I'm amazed though, that's a thorough inspector. Did he scope the sewer pipes too?
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I'm thinking this may not have been a regular home inspection.

If the buyer were getting something like an FHA loan to buy the property they send out their own inspector or at least inspectors they trust to meet certain inspection criteria. They tend to dig a little deeper than other home inspections.

If this was just a regular home inspector I agree he was good. I'm always on the side of the buyer because I hate to see people cheated on a home sale. Once they know the facts they can do whatever they wish but at least they know what they are buying.
 
petersonra said:
I don't think it is legalistically correct to say he "failed" it. He did point out some legitimate issues that the buyer should at least know about going into the deal.

Beyond that, it is up to the buyer, seller, mortgage holder, and insurer to collectively determine what if any corrective action is made, or who pays for it if some action is taken.

Personally, I do not think it is appropriate for the HI to be recommending what the fix should be for any problem he finds with the house. That should be up to a professional in that line of work, and not the HI.
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Little Bill said:
Funny how the HI even knows if the devices are correct or not. I say that because I hear them say all the time that they don't/won't/can't remove devices. They only remove the panel covers. They don't (at least in my area) even take the device cover plates off.

I always thought it odd that they will remove a panel cover but not a switch or receptacle cover!
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I don't run into HI's, but sometimes get asked to give an electrical inspection on a property for sale - which I hate to do as I feel if I tell them things are Ok that leaves me some liability should something happen shortly thereafter and they try to come back on me as saying it was safe:huh:
But I don't know how you would ever know about bootleg equipment grounds or be able to warn people about "back stabbed" devices and the potential problems that they could have if you can't take the covers off.

Before anyone goes on about "back stabs" being legal - I know that, but if I am making the report I will note that such connections are present and that though they are legal they have still been a concern in many instances of being a weak connection and source of a "hot spot" and that those involved need to be aware of it.
 
kwired said:
But I don't know how you would ever know about bootleg equipment grounds or be able to warn people about "back stabbed" devices and the potential problems that they could have if you can't take the covers off.

Before anyone goes on about "back stabs" being legal - I know that, but if I am making the report I will note that such connections are present and that though they are legal they have still been a concern in many instances of being a weak connection and source of a "hot spot"
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An Ideal Sure Test will identify bootleg grounds without removeing the receptacle or cover. But a home inspection is not required to discover bootleg grounds.

You really can't go around warning people about back stabs. They would have to warn people of 99% of the houses that I work on. A lot of time fixing problems with those back stabs.
 
growler said:
...You really can't go around warning people about back stabs. They would have to warn people of 99% of the houses that I work on. A lot of time fixing problems with those back stabs.
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Well, there's "going around warning people..." and then there's being asked for my professional opinion. For the latter, I most certainly can tell them exactly what I think and have witnessed. Indeed, that's exactly what they are paying me for.

The NEC is largely a reactionary document, based on the experiences of electricians. Just because it hasn't been amended YET, we KNOW backstabs are a bad idea and can use professional judgment, not just in our installations, but in our recommendations. There really isn't a way for bribes to be involved in getting these disallowed, so it may take some time.
 
Where I live, thorough inspections are the norm. It's nothing to have a 30 or 40 page Report with five or six pages dedicated just to electrical.

And the inspectors around here open up a sample size of the openings if they see the potential that they might need to make other notes. If they open the panel and see all aluminum wiring, they will almost certainly open up one receptacle in every room.

And you don't even need to go further than removing the plate to see that a receptacle is not rated for aluminum. The lug screws are different.

it's also possible that the inspector has a background in electrical work. Around 8 years ago, I became certified for home inspections. I never did any official inspections, I was just trying to shore myself up after the 2009 recession.

But I still work with a couple of Realtors who will ask me to do a pre-inspection just so the seller will have an idea what kind of repairs and how much money they might be looking at when a real inspection is done
 
MAC702 said:
Well, there's "going around warning people..." and then there's being asked for my professional opinion. For the latter, I most certainly can tell them exactly what I think and have witnessed. Indeed, that's exactly what they are paying me for.

The NEC is largely a reactionary document, based on the experiences of electricians. Just because it hasn't been amended YET ,We KNOW that back stabs are a bad idea and can use professional judgment, not just in our installations, but in our recommendations. There really isn't a way for bribes to be involved in getting these disallowed, so it may take some time.
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OK I don't like back stabs and don't terminate that way but the devices that have that have back stabs are UL approved.

I can give and opinion that it's not the best practice and that I have noticed problems with back stabbing but I don't see that they will ever be eliminated. There are just to many contractors wiring new homes that are not about to give them up and I doubt that UL is about to admit they were wrong and that they should not have been approved.

The NEC is a set of "minimum" safety standards and not a design manual. The back stabs obviously meet the criteria for minimum safety.

I don't know of any inspection criteria that would fail a house for useing the back stab terminations. Not FHA, VA, HUD, section eight houseing or any other. It is an approved method of wiring.

It would be hard for a home inspector to write is up as a fault just because it's not the best wiring method.
 
kwired said:
I don't run into HI's, but sometimes get asked to give an electrical inspection on a property for sale - which I hate to do as I feel if I tell them things are Ok that leaves me some liability should something happen shortly thereafter and they try to come back on me as saying it was safe:huh:
But I don't know how you would ever know about bootleg equipment grounds or be able to warn people about "back stabbed" devices and the potential problems that they could have if you can't take the covers off.

Before anyone goes on about "back stabs" being legal - I know that, but if I am making the report I will note that such connections are present and that though they are legal they have still been a concern in many instances of being a weak connection and source of a "hot spot" and that those involved need to be aware of it.
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I have been performing commercial inspections for 35 years, with some residential (maybe 2 a year). You have to outline what you inspected and add caveats for the hidden stuff. We will point out stuff we find questionable or borderline. We would note that the place had backstabbed.


In the end, if someone is going to sue you they are going to sue you, I have been involved in several lawsuits and it all revolved around bankruptcies, never had an issue to date regarding our inspection and testing.
 
user 100 said:
So this HI is the AHJ?;)

I am aware of the NEC definition of approved- the CPSC ref above had nothing to do w/ AHJ approval of anything- just pointing out that the alumiconns have been found to be a satisfactory repair for AL wiring by said agency.

I am confident that the op also knows that his AHJ is the "be all, end all" for any method, but just in case he is not-

From ART 100-

Approved: Acceptable to the area having jurisdiction.

In short, if in doubt, contact your AHJ, instead of taking the word of a HI who is proposing a needlessly expensive solution. And if it turns out that the HI was right on target and copalum is what is required for that area, more power to him. Yet still, he should just refer clients to an electrician and slink away.
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I don't think I implied or said the HI is the AHJ. Heck I doubt that this repair work would require a permit or the AHJ getting involved.
However it is certainly the prerogative for a HI to point out any and all issues with a home he is inspecting. I applaud a HI noting this particular issue. I noted in the other posts I highly doubt that the home had original devices installed in the 70's. So if he noticed this he was correct. This is no different than the HI noting double wires at a breaker when not listed. Or for that matter any other code violation or problem with the home.

I would think that if you had a family member purchasing a home across country that you are not able to inspect , you would like someone this thorough.
That is unless you were the HO hack that performed the not to code repairs or unpermitted alterations.

Geez
 
A couple of comments on prior posts.

Backstabs. I don't have a problem with them. UL has extensively investigated them and determined they are "safe enough" for UL to list them. I am not about to claim UL is incompetent in this matter because I certainly am not and I have to rely on organizations like UL to make this determination for me. You are certainly free to use whatever method of connection you want to if you do not want to backstab them.

Legal liability. You can be sued even if you did nothing wrong. It is why you have liability insurance. Pay your premiums and don't worry about it. You are paying for peace of mind and legal fees for the most part. If something pops up, let your insurer handle it and move on. You have been paying insurance premiums all this time just to let someone else worry about this particular problem if it ever comes up. Let them do what you have been paying them for all those years. It is like HO insurance. Chances of your house burning down is remote. But, it could happen. it is why you pay for HO insurance (among other reasons). If you come home from work some day and instead of a house there is a smoking pile of ashes, it is not your problem to deal with. You have paid someone else to handle the problem for you. Let them take care of it.
 
petersonra said:
.............Legal liability. You can be sued even if you did nothing wrong. It is why you have liability insurance. Pay your premiums and don't worry about it. You are paying for peace of mind and legal fees for the most part. If something pops up, let your insurer handle it and move on. You have been paying insurance premiums all this time just to let someone else worry about this particular problem if it ever comes up. Let them do what you have been paying them for all those years. It is like HO insurance. Chances of your house burning down is remote. But, it could happen. it is why you pay for HO insurance (among other reasons). If you come home from work some day and instead of a house there is a smoking pile of ashes, it is not your problem to deal with. You have paid someone else to handle the problem for you. Let them take care of it.
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After which, you cannot get liability insurance at ANY price because you've had such a massive claim you're now a pariah.
 
In my experience there is a shortage on good inspectors. The good ones are always booked out weeks, and so everyone has to settle for the crappy ones. However, most inspectors also aren't able to be thorough and still make a living. Everyone wants cheap. That only gets you so much time in the house, and only so much can be checked.
 
growler said:
OK I don't like back stabs and don't terminate that way but the devices that have that have back stabs are UL approved.

I can give and opinion that it's not the best practice and that I have noticed problems with back stabbing but I don't see that they will ever be eliminated. There are just to many contractors wiring new homes that are not about to give them up and I doubt that UL is about to admit they were wrong and that they should not have been approved.

The NEC is a set of "minimum" safety standards and not a design manual. The back stabs obviously meet the criteria for minimum safety.

I don't know of any inspection criteria that would fail a house for useing the back stab terminations. Not FHA, VA, HUD, section eight houseing or any other. It is an approved method of wiring.

It would be hard for a home inspector to write is up as a fault just because it's not the best wiring method.
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Can't really disagree. I didn't claim that backstabs aren't safe. After all, if half of your circuit is dead, things are still "safe," I guess.

It also depends on who's paying for my opinion. If a seller is asking if it's safe to sell with backstabs, the answer is yes. If a buyer is asking me if there are any concerns with buying backstabbed devices, the answer is yes. I, too, would not use the word "fail" for finding backstabs in an inspection.
 
petersonra said:
It just plain does not work that way. Unless they think there is some kind of fraud involved.
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I've seen it work that way.

Business owner had a claim filed against him. Insurance carrier paid up, and dropped him. He couldn't find insurance anywhere else after that. He ended up working for his competition.
 
MAC702 said:
Well, there's "going around warning people..." and then there's being asked for my professional opinion. For the latter, I most certainly can tell them exactly what I think and have witnessed. Indeed, that's exactly what they are paying me for
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That is my approach. If I see something I don't like but is otherwise code compliant there is going to be some commentary on it in my report explaining that it is code compliant but also explaining what issue I am concerned about. They hired me for my professional advice, I am not the city/state inspector looking for minimum code and granting occupation. I even tell them things like it very well was code compliant when it was installed but if done today GFCI protection would be required - for their own informational purposes.

growler said:
OK I don't like back stabs and don't terminate that way but the devices that have that have back stabs are UL approved.

I can give and opinion that it's not the best practice and that I have noticed problems with back stabbing but I don't see that they will ever be eliminated. There are just to many contractors wiring new homes that are not about to give them up and I doubt that UL is about to admit they were wrong and that they should not have been approved.

The NEC is a set of "minimum" safety standards and not a design manual. The back stabs obviously meet the criteria for minimum safety.

I don't know of any inspection criteria that would fail a house for useing the back stab terminations. Not FHA, VA, HUD, section eight houseing or any other. It is an approved method of wiring.

It would be hard for a home inspector to write is up as a fault just because it's not the best wiring method.
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Nothing wrong with a home inspection stating concerns over something like that - it is not a code compliance inspection it is a report card on the condition of things in the home. One should report anything that was code compliant at installation but now is in questionable condition.

MAC702 said:
Can't really disagree. I didn't claim that backstabs aren't safe. After all, if half of your circuit is dead, things are still "safe," I guess.

It also depends on who's paying for my opinion. If a seller is asking if it's safe to sell with backstabs, the answer is yes. If a buyer is asking me if there are any concerns with buying backstabbed devices, the answer is yes. I, too, would not use the word "fail" for finding backstabs in an inspection.
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Fail is the key word - there is no home inspection failures, only a report of things that may need some attention for better safety performance.
 
Sierrasparky said:
I don't think I implied or said the HI is the AHJ. Heck I doubt that this repair work would require a permit or the AHJ getting involved.
However it is certainly the prerogative for a HI to point out any and all issues with a home he is inspecting. I applaud a HI noting this particular issue. I noted in the other posts I highly doubt that the home had original devices installed in the 70's. So if he noticed this he was correct. This is no different than the HI noting double wires at a breaker when not listed. Or for that matter any other code violation or problem with the home.

I would think that if you had a family member purchasing a home across country that you are not able to inspect , you would like someone this thorough.
That is unless you were the HO hack that performed the not to code repairs or unpermitted alterations.

Geez
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The beef is not with the HI finding something wrong- it was with him recommending a fix. If you read the op carefully, you see why a lot of us have a problem w/ these guys and their advice.....

HI in the op recommended CO/ALR devices. Great. Problem is what he prolly ​didn't say.....

* That those devices are NOT considered a very good solution by the feds for this issue- the top 3 are rewire or copalum/alumiconns w/ copper pigtails to cu devices. He also likely didn't mention to HO that AL has to be terminated correctly to co/alr devices - HO learns these guys are available down at big blue, gets the idea that he can do it himself, and promptly overtorques causing hotspots down the road- and now we are back to square one with respect to a fire hazard/danger to the new occupants of the house. The HO could get the idea from anywhere else besides the HI, but still.

He still just should have relayed the potential problem to the HO, making clear the dangers and that it wasn't something HO could fix on his own and refer him to an EC.
 
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user 100 said:
The beef is not with the HI finding something wrong- it was with him recommending a fix. If you read the op carefully, you see why a lot of us have a problem w/ these guys and their advice.....

HI in the op recommended CO/ALR devices. Great. Problem is what he prolly ​didn't say.....

* That those devices are NOT considered a very good solution by the feds for this issue- the top 3 are rewire or copalum/alumiconns w/ copper pigtails to cu devices. He also likely didn't mention to HO that AL has to be terminated correctly to co/alr devices - HO learns these guys are available down at big blue, gets the idea that he can do it himself, and promptly overtorques causing hotspots down the road- and now we are back to square one with respect to a fire hazard/danger to the new occupants of the house. The HO could get the idea from anywhere else besides the HI, but still.

He still just should have relayed the potential problem to the HO, making clear the dangers and that it wasn't something HO could fix on his own and refer him to an EC.
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We really don't know a whole lot as the OP has not responded. This could very well be a pass fail type of inspection when it comes to the lender if they do not accept AL wiring. We don't know. Secondly it is the job of the HI to find anything wrong with the home without doing destructive testing. If it is to write up Replacement devices that are not CO/ALR then that it be. Again I have no hard feelings for a HI being thorough. Yes he should not be recommending a single particular method of repair but we really don't know do we?

I have lots of issues with HI and what the do or don't do. Lately at least I see them citing the GFCI "well not required at the time but recommend" Many cities in my area require GFCI be added prior to sale as well as Smokes. What I have problem with is the HI overlooking obvious shoddy remodel and no notes in the report.
 
Sierrasparky said:
We really don't know a whole lot as the OP has not responded. This could very well be a pass fail type of inspection when it comes to the lender if they do not accept AL wiring. We don't know. Secondly it is the job of the HI to find anything wrong with the home without doing destructive testing. If it is to write up Replacement devices that are not CO/ALR then that it be. Again I have no hard feelings for a HI being thorough. Yes he should not be recommending a single particular method of repair but we really don't know do we?

I have lots of issues with HI and what the do or don't do. Lately at least I see them citing the GFCI "well not required at the time but recommend" Many cities in my area require GFCI be added prior to sale as well as Smokes. What I have problem with is the HI overlooking obvious shoddy remodel and no notes in the report.
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Why some pick on GFCI requiments, others the Al wiring issue but ignore the obviously open splices or _____(fill in the blank) is a wonder.
 
480sparky said:
I've seen it work that way.

Business owner had a claim filed against him. Insurance carrier paid up, and dropped him. He couldn't find insurance anywhere else after that. He ended up working for his competition.
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I would guess the insurance company suspected fraud of some sort but was just unable to prove it. Insurance companies are required to pay off unless they can actually prove fraud and it's a very hard thing to prove in many cases. The insurance companies talk to each other and if you are suspected of fraud by one company it's going to be really hard to get insurance someplace else. Given that it is unlikely the guy is going to admit to you he was involved in some kind of fraud it's easier for him to just lay it on the insurance companies. Or he could be completely innocent and all the insurance companies are out to get him. I know what scenario I think is more likely.
 
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