hot tub and ser alum

[Daja7]

Can you run a ser alum to disconnect then go copper to the tub connections this is an outside hot tub.
Also how is the ampacity of SER alum determined 60 or 75 c.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Yes you can use aluminum inside a dwelling and the ampacity of seu probably can be 75C depending on what code cycle and how the cable is run.

 

[curt swartz]

680.42(C)
Interior Wiring to Outdoor Installations. In the interior
of a one-family dwelling or in the interior of another
building or structure associated with a one-family dwelling,
any of the wiring methods recognized in Chapter 3 of this
Code that contain a copper equipment grounding conductor
that is insulated or enclosed within the outer sheath of the
wiring method and not smaller than 12 AWG shall be permitted
to be used for the connection to motor, heating, and control
loads that are part of a self-contained spa or hot tub or a
packaged spa or hot tub equipment assembly. Wiring to an
underwater luminaire shall comply with 680.23 or 680.33.

 

[Michael15956]

Yes you can use aluminum inside a dwelling and the ampacity of seu probably can be 75C depending on what code cycle and how the cable is run.

Dennis, say a jurisdiction is on a code cycle where SE Cable is only allow at 60C, but there is knowledge that in the next code update it can be used at 75C. How can this jurisdiction say no because that code is not in effect here, when they are ask to allow a 75C under 90.4, paragraph 2?

 

[Dennis Alwon]

680.42(C)
Interior Wiring to Outdoor Installations. In the interior
of a one-family dwelling or in the interior of another
building or structure associated with a one-family dwelling,
any of the wiring methods recognized in Chapter 3 of this
Code that contain a copper equipment grounding conductor
that is insulated or enclosed within the outer sheath of the
wiring method and not smaller than 12 AWG shall be permitted
to be used for the connection to motor, heating, and control
loads that are part of a self-contained spa or hot tub or a
packaged spa or hot tub equipment assembly. Wiring to an
underwater luminaire shall comply with 680.23 or 680.33.

Curt I am not sure that that pertains to the feeder to the tub but rather the wire from the disconnect to the tub. It is confusing I agree

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Dennis, say a jurisdiction is on a code cycle where SE Cable is only allow at 60C, but there is knowledge that in the next code update it can be used at 75C. How can this jurisdiction say no because that code is not in effect here, when they are ask to allow a 75C under 90.4, paragraph 2?

Some jurisdictions would allow it but others feel that it must be installed under the code that is in use. One also doesn't know if the state will accept the new code without an amendment.

I think this is totally an inspectors call. You can call the state individual who is the head of all the inspectors and see if he would allow it.... Some states approve a code but the active date may be put off for a month or more. Our area will allow us to use the new code in that situation but it must already be approved

 

[curt swartz]

Some jurisdictions would allow it but others feel that it must be installed under the code that is in use. One also doesn't know if the state will accept the new code without an amendment.

I think this is totally an inspectors call. You can call the state individual who is the head of all the inspectors and see if he would allow it.... Some states approve a code but the active date may be put off for a month or more. Our area will allow us to use the new code in that situation but it must already be approved

Dennis, in my opinion the article I posted covers the branch circuit wiring to the Tub. If a feeder is installed it would have to comply with 680.25 which would rule out NM or SE cable as wiring methods.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Dennis, in my opinion the article I posted covers the branch circuit wiring to the Tub. If a feeder is installed it would have to comply with 680.25 which would rule out NM or SE cable as wiring methods.

If you feed the tub from a main panel and install a disconnect that contains a gfci then the wiring from the main panel to the disconnect is a feeder. The art. you stated says I can use any of the wiring methods of Chapter 3 inside the dwelling so se cable would be allowed IMO. The copper ground would be needed from the disconnect to the tub.

 

[jap]

If you feed the tub from a main panel and install a disconnect that contains a gfci then the wiring from the main panel to the disconnect is a feeder. The art. you stated says I can use any of the wiring methods of Chapter 3 inside the dwelling so se cable would be allowed IMO. The copper ground would be needed from the disconnect to the tub.

If in 2011 code and your feeding the tub where there is not an existing outside pane fed from a main panel then your installing new.
680.25 A 1 Exception, only seems to allow a cable type feeder installation to the outside Panel with the GFI if it is "Existing".



JAP>

 

[Dennis Alwon]

If in 2011 code and your feeding the tub where there is not an existing outside pane fed from a main panel then your installing new.
680.25 A 1 Exception, only seems to allow a cable type feeder installation to the outside Panel with the GFI if it is "Existing".



JAP>

Where does it say existing panel under Part IV in art 680

 

[curt swartz]

Dennis, you are saying a feeder doesn't have to comply with 680.25 or 680.42(C)? I interpret that 680.42 only applies to the branch circuit wiring between the final over current device and the tub. If you install a feeder then the feeder must comply with 680.25. If you are stating that 680.42 also applies to a feeder for the tub then what exception lets you use an AL EGC?

 

[jap]

Where does it say existing panel under Part IV in art 680

680.42 indicates a spa or hot tub installed outdoors shall comply with the provisions of Parts I and II of this article which is where 680.25 is located.

JAP>

 

[jap]

If its indoor it seems to change things per 680.43.

JAP>

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Dennis, you are saying a feeder doesn't have to comply with 680.25 or 680.42(C)? I interpret that 680.42 only applies to the branch circuit wiring between the final over current device and the tub. If you install a feeder then the feeder must comply with 680.25. If you are stating that 680.42 also applies to a feeder for the tub then what exception lets you use an AL EGC?

That's what I am saying. I have never heard of anyone getting turned down for running NM under a house to a disconnect for a hot tub. I don't see anywhere that there is a distinction in 680.43 between feeder or branch circuit.

 

[curt swartz]

That's what I am saying. I have never heard of anyone getting turned down for running NM under a house to a disconnect for a hot tub. I don't see anywhere that there is a distinction in 680.43 between feeder or branch circuit.

Lets say 680.42 does also apply to a feeder. My question was what exception would allow you to use an AL EGC since 680.42 specifically states it must be CU?

 

[Michael15956]

680.42(C)
Interior Wiring to Outdoor Installations. In the interior
of a one-family dwelling or in the interior of another
building or structure associated with a one-family dwelling,
any of the wiring methods recognized in Chapter 3 of this
Code that contain a copper equipment grounding conductor
that is insulated or enclosed within the outer sheath of the
wiring method and not smaller than 12 AWG shall be permitted
to be used for the connection to motor, heating, and control
loads that are part of a self-contained spa or hot tub or a
packaged spa or hot tub equipment assembly. Wiring to an
underwater luminaire shall comply with 680.23 or 680.33.

I think this section is pretty clear. What gets confusing is what to call the wire-way, a feeder or branch circuit or whatever.

I see it only as interior wiring to outdoor wiring, which includes a feeder or branch circuit or whatever.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Lets say 680.42 does also apply to a feeder. My question was what exception would allow you to use an AL EGC since 680.42 specifically states it must be CU?

I get your drift but if you read 680.42(C) none of it makes sense. It starts out talking about the interior wiring to an outdoor installation but in that sentence it talks about the equipment grounding conductor being copper to the connection of the motor., etc. What does that have to do with the interior wiring?

It is without a doubt confusing however why would you be required to use copper on the feeder conductor when copper is not required for pool feeders-- 680.25

(C) Interior Wiring to Outdoor Installations. In the interior
of a dwelling unit or in the interior of another building
or structure associated with a dwelling unit, any of the
wiring methods recognized or permitted in Chapter 3 of
this Code that contains a copper equipment grounding conductor
that is insulated or enclosed within the outer sheath
of the wiring method and not smaller than 12 AWG shall be
permitted to be used for the connection to motor, heating,
and control loads that are part of a self-contained spa or hot
tub or a packaged spa or hot tub equipment assembly. Wiring
to an underwater luminaire shall comply with 680.23 or
680.33.

 

[jap]

I get your drift but if you read 680.42(C) none of it makes sense. It starts out talking about the interior wiring to an outdoor installation but in that sentence it talks about the equipment grounding conductor being copper to the connection of the motor., etc. What does that have to do with the interior wiring?

It is without a doubt confusing however why would you be required to use copper on the feeder conductor when copper is not required for pool feeders-- 680.25

one thing we all agree on is that this section is terribly confusing.

JAP>

 

[curt swartz]

Pretty much all branch circuits for equipment related to swimming pools require copper EGC's. Copper will hold up much better to chemicals used for pools. Feeders are more protected from the chemicals.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Pretty much all branch circuits for equipment related to swimming pools require copper EGC's. Copper will hold up much better to chemicals used for pools. Feeders are more protected from the chemicals.

So why would a hot tub require a copper feeder if the pool doesn't? I agree the article seems to indicate aluminum is out but again I think it is in reference to the load side going to the pool.

I think what the section is getting at is that you can use chapter 3 wiring inside the dwelling to the disconnect but from the disconnect to the unit you need a copper equipment grounding conductor that is insulated or covered