hot tub and ser alum

david

Senior Member
Location
Pennsylvania
Dennis, in my opinion the article I posted covers the branch circuit wiring to the Tub. If a feeder is installed it would have to comply with 680.25 which would rule out NM or SE cable as wiring methods.
If you feed the tub from a main panel and install a disconnect that contains a gfci then the wiring from the main panel to the disconnect is a feeder. The art. you stated says I can use any of the wiring methods of Chapter 3 inside the dwelling so se cable would be allowed IMO. The copper ground would be needed from the disconnect to the tub.
Can you run a ser alum to disconnect then go copper to the tub connections this is an outside hot tub.
Also how is the ampacity of SER alum determined 60 or 75 c.
No 680.25 requires a wiring method with a insulated equipment ground a covered equipment ground is not an option for a new feeder to a pool panel. your feeder will have to be in conduit

(A) Wiring Methods. Feeders shall be installed in rigid metal conduit, intermediate metal conduit, liquidtight flexible nonmetallic conduit, rigid polyvinyl chloride conduit, or reinforced thermosetting resin conduit. Electrical metallic tubing shall be permitted where installed on or within a building, and electrical nonmetallic tubing shall be permitted where installed within a building. Aluminum conduits shall not be permitted in the pool area where subject to corrosion.
 

Dennis Alwon

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Chapel Hill, NC
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
No 680.25 requires a wiring method with a insulated equipment ground a covered equipment ground is not an option for a new feeder to a pool panel. your feeder will have to be in conduit

(A) Wiring Methods. Feeders shall be installed in rigid metal conduit, intermediate metal conduit, liquidtight flexible nonmetallic conduit, rigid polyvinyl chloride conduit, or reinforced thermosetting resin conduit. Electrical metallic tubing shall be permitted where installed on or within a building, and electrical nonmetallic tubing shall be permitted where installed within a building. Aluminum conduits shall not be permitted in the pool area where subject to corrosion.

David that is for pools and we are talking about hot tubs. There is a separate section for Hot tubs. Also a covered or insulated equipment grounding conductor means it can be a wire with insulation on it or a cable that covers the wire. NM cable has a covered equipment grounding conductor.
 

david

Senior Member
Location
Pennsylvania
David that is for pools and we are talking about hot tubs. There is a separate section for Hot tubs. Also a covered or insulated equipment grounding conductor means it can be a wire with insulation on it or a cable that covers the wire. NM cable has a covered equipment grounding conductor.
Dennis
680.42 (A) (1) modifies 680.25 (A) in that it allows a modification to the type of conduit used for a feeder to a pool panel (hot tub type pool) unless you are using a cord restricted to a length not exceeding 15 ft. there is no modification for a feeder that allows SER cable, conduit is required for the Hot Tub feeder.

680. 42 (C )modifies part II of art 680 in that it allows an un-insulated copper but covered to the heating load, the motor load, to the controls (load) remember not all hot tubs have a manufactured installed panel that extends the branch circuits to these individual loads. That is why the lighting is specifically left un modified as found in part II of art. 680.
 

Dennis Alwon

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Chapel Hill, NC
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
It does not modify the type of conduit it allows NM cable inside the dwelling. This has been the accepted ruling for years. I do not understand why you think conduit is needed.
 

curt swartz

Electrical Contractor - San Jose, CA
Location
San Jose, CA
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
So why would a hot tub require a copper feeder if the pool doesn't? I agree the article seems to indicate aluminum is out but again I think it is in reference to the load side going to the pool.

I think what the section is getting at is that you can use chapter 3 wiring inside the dwelling to the disconnect but from the disconnect to the unit you need a copper equipment grounding conductor that is insulated or covered
I'm not saying that the feeder needs a copper EGC. I'm saying that if you install a feeder it must comply with 680.25.
 

Dennis Alwon

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Chapel Hill, NC
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
I'm not saying that the feeder needs a copper EGC. I'm saying that if you install a feeder it must comply with 680.25.

And I respectfully disagree. Remember the wire from the main panel to the disconnect at the tub is often a feeder, Install the dp gfci at the panel and it is a branch circuit--- :? How crazy is that
 

david

Senior Member
Location
Pennsylvania
It does not modify the type of conduit it allows NM cable inside the dwelling. This has been the accepted ruling for years. I do not understand why you think conduit is needed.

680.43 Indoor Installations.
A spa or hot tub installed indoors shall comply with the provisions of Parts I and II of this article except as modified by this section and shall be connected by the wiring methods of Chapter 3.

Lets look at 680.43 for just a moment and the similar language used in 680.42. Chapter 3 wiring methods is in contrast to
680.42 (A) Flexible Connections

(2) Cord-and-Plug Connections. Cord-and-plug connections with a cord not longer than 4.6 m (15 ft) shall be permitted where protected by a ground-fault circuit interrupter.

Part II is applicable to chapter 3 wiring methods.

You could not conclude that an indoor hot tub having and under water lighting fixture supplied by a single branch circuit could have a 14 AWG equipment ground. The allowance to use a chapter three wiring method does not state a 14 AWG un-insulated , conductor because the specifics in part II are applicable

680.42 Says basically the same thing you can use a chapter three wiring method with a copper equipment ground. It does not say the specifics in part II are not applicable to the chapter three wiring methods.

Edit:
" The use of liquidtight flexible metal or nonmetallic conduit in a length not to exceed 6 ft is permitted by 680.42(A)(1) as a wiring method to supply control panels or panelboards installed by the manufacturer in packaged or self-contained spas and hot tubs. This provision modifies the requirement of 680.25(A) covering the wiring methods permitted for feeder conductors supplying swimming pool equipment."

NFPA Handbook 2008
 

Dennis Alwon

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Chapel Hill, NC
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
So you are saying 680.43 means absolutely nothing. Sorry we will have to agree to disagree. I will also state that your interpretation is not the one I have heard from cmp members or inspectors I have encounbtered
 

david

Senior Member
Location
Pennsylvania
So you are saying 680.43 means absolutely nothing. Sorry we will have to agree to disagree. I will also state that your interpretation is not the one I have heard from cmp members or inspectors I have encounbtered
No,
I'm saying it depends on what you are supplying. Hot tubs come with many variations.

They could be gas heated. And a circulation pump with controls. A single branch circuit not involving a feeder or under water lighting. A copper 20 amp branch circuit supplied by NM cable could meet the requirements in 680.43 or the interior of a dwelling for 680.42.

It could be gas heated and include under water lighting. In that case an insulated un-splice # 12 equipment ground would be required.

It could be 15 ft flexible feeder cord GFCI protected.

It could be a feeder supply exceeding 15 ft. and insulated equipment ground would be required.

What does the code mean parts I and II are applicable?
 

Michael15956

Senior Member
Location
NE Ohio
Once again, Dennis, in all due respect, I think the confusion is calling the "interior wiring" a feeder. Don't give the interior wiring of a dwelling a name and just look at the words of 680.42(C) and see it that makes sense.

In my opinion the EGC has to be copper.
 

david

Senior Member
Location
Pennsylvania
680.21 Motors.
(A) Wiring Methods. The wiring to a pool motor shall comply with (A)(1) unless modified for specific circumstances by (A)(2), (A)(3), (A)(4), or (A)(5).
(1) General. The branch circuits for pool-associated motors shall be installed in rigid metal conduit, intermediate metal conduit, rigid polyvinyl chloride conduit, reinforced thermosetting resin conduit, or Type MC cable listed for the location. Other wiring methods and materials shall be permitted in specific locations or applications as covered in this section. Any wiring method employed shall contain an insulated copper equipment grounding conductor sized in accordance with 250.122 but not smaller than 12 AWG.

680.42 Outdoor Installations.
(C) Interior Wiring to Outdoor Installations. In the interior of a one-family dwelling or in the interior of another building or structure associated with a one-family dwelling, any of the wiring methods recognized in Chapter 3 of this Code that contain a copper equipment grounding conductor that is insulated or enclosed within the outer sheath of the wiring method and not smaller than 12 AWG shall be permitted to be used for the connection to motor,……………………………………..

680.21 Motors.
(4) One-Family Dwellings. In the interior of dwelling units, or in the interior of accessory buildings associated with a dwelling unit, any of the wiring methods recognized in Chapter 3 of this Code that comply with the provisions of this section shall be permitted. Where run in a cable assembly, the equipment grounding conductor shall be permitted to be uninsulated, but it shall be enclosed within the outer sheath of the cable assembly.

Edit 680.21 does not modify 680.25 (feeders) and 680.42 does not modify 680.25 feeders.
if 680.42 modified 680.25 than a 60 amp feeder to a panel supplying a spa or hot tub would have to be copper equipment grounding.
 
Last edited:

Dennis Alwon

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Chapel Hill, NC
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
We can argue this all day-- I don't agree with your viewpoint- I don't know what else to say- I am not going to change your mind nor you mine. I know what is required and how it is interpreted here. I may eat crow on the aluminum feeder but again I think that is just because it is not clear. A pool does not req. the feeder to be copper to the panel. We are talking feeders and I agree that copper must be used to the tub itself.

Michael15956 said:
Once again, Dennis, in all due respect, I think the confusion is calling the "interior wiring" a feeder. Don't give the interior wiring of a dwelling a name and just look at the words of 680.42(C) and see it that makes sense.
That does not change it for me. The section does not mention feeder nor branch circuit but by definition the wire to the tub is a branch circuit and 680.42(C) does req. that to have an insulated or enclose equipment grounding conductor.

For what it is worth we almost always pipe the tubs we do because some tubs req. a full sized equipment grounding conductor.
 
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