Hot Tub install....

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Sierrasparky said:
Secondly look at the definition of "Switching Device "
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Circuit Breaker. A switching device capable of making, carrying, and interrupting currents under normal circuit conditions, and also of making, carrying for a specified time, and interrupting currents under specified abnormal circuit conditions, such as those of short circuit.

I'm not sure what you mean

I thought a circuit breaker was a form of a switching devise
 
david said:
Circuit Breaker. A switching device capable of making, carrying, and interrupting currents under normal circuit conditions, and also of making, carrying for a specified time, and interrupting currents under specified abnormal circuit conditions, such as those of short circuit.

I'm not sure what you mean

I thought a circuit breaker was a form of a switching devise
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Did you know you copied that from the section " Over 600 volts"

I like how so many people take items out of context. I also wonder why the CMP just did not use common words like disconnect, circuit breaker, switches.
My take is that this definition pertains to over 600 volts. therefore did not apply to things other than that.
So in my Humble opinion I feel that maybe at the time this "might" have complied.
CMP needs to stop creating confusion and be simple. Say just what they mean.
 
Dennis Alwon said:
How do you know this is not a 120V tub and how do you know there is no gfci protection. I agree there does not seem to be one in the panel but it seems you know something I am missing
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Connecticut Winters, in a basement, next to a window, would need a 240v heating element, unless the occupant likes taking dips in ice ponds while enebriated, like they do in Finland.

Since the fuse box is so close, I doubt a separate SPA disconnect --with GFCI reset-- is used.
 
ptonsparky said:
I don't see a problem, it's empty, move it, have it moved, or go home. I don't care in some cases if it is technically legal.

Pulling out in front of a speeding truck because you have the legal right of way is not a good decision.
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I don't see a safety issue.

Standing in the (full) tub working on the panel is the equivalent of pulling out in traffic without space.

In other words personal responsibility should come into play.
 
iwire said:
Regardless of what we may feel the NEC wants we have to go by what is written.

I don't see a prohibition for panelboards and OCPDs.
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In this case the disconnect is in the panel. I am not arguing the panel being there but rather the disco.
 
Dennis Alwon said:
In this case the disconnect is in the panel. I am not arguing the panel being there but rather the disco.
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You and jap had been discussing locating the disconnecting means remotely but leaving the panel in place.

In my opinion that would not be prohibited.

Dennis Alwon said:
You just don't get to decide which one is the disco
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In my opinion we would get to do exactly that.
 
iwire said:
I don't see a safety issue.

Standing in the (full) tub working on the panel is the equivalent of pulling out in traffic without space.

In other words personal responsibility should come into play.
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Yes, PR does come in to play. If the OP, in his opinion, decides that this installation is incorrect, then he must (should) take action to correct it, or leave. His personal responsibility. The receptacle may be considered behind a door but you, I, and the neighbor know that device will be used for something, be it a radio, space heater or cell phone charger.

Removing it and installing a properly placed GFCI and AFCI protected outlet would suffice.
 
Sierrasparky said:
Did you know you copied that from the section " Over 600 volts"

I like how so many people take items out of context. I also wonder why the CMP just did not use common words like disconnect, circuit breaker, switches.
My take is that this definition pertains to over 600 volts. therefore did not apply to things other than that.
So in my Humble opinion I feel that maybe at the time this "might" have complied.
CMP needs to stop creating confusion and be simple. Say just what they mean.
Click to expand...

Thank you for pointing that out it was a quick search on the term switching devise. I went back and re=looked and did not find a definition for the term “switching device.”

In my opinion any breaker marked SWD would be considered a switching device

Device. A unit of an electrical system that carries or controls electric energy as its principal function.

Switch, General-Use. A switch intended for use in general distribution and branch circuits. It is rated in amperes, and it is capable of interrupting its rated current at its rated voltage.

680.43 Indoor Installations. (C) Wall Switches. Switches shall be located at least 1.5 m (5 ft), measured horizontally, from the inside walls of the spa or hot tub.

680.22 Area Lighting, Receptacles, and Equipment. (D) Switching Devices. Switching devices shall be located at least 1.5 m (5 ft) horizontally from the inside walls of a pool unless separated from the pool by a solid fence, wall, or other permanent barrier. Alternatively, a switch that is listed as being acceptable for use within 1.5 m (5 ft) shall be permitted.
 
I do not have an opinion as to it being safe to come in contact or a wall switch being within 5 ft of a pool / spa.

.But it would be my opinion if a plastic wall switch with possible metal mounting screws is considered a hazard within 5 ft. than a plastic breaker handle with a metal enclosure would represent the same or greater contact hazard.
 
ramsy said:
Connecticut Winters, in a basement, next to a window, would need a 240v heating element, unless the occupant likes taking dips in ice ponds while enebriated, like they do in Finland.

Since the fuse box is so close, I doubt a separate SPA disconnect --with GFCI reset-- is used.
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I have a 120 volt spa located outdoors, it keeps up the temp just fine in winter months around here - with the cover on the spa. It will not heat while pump is in user mode (high speed) because that would draw too much current for the supply circuit, but I am not going to be using the thing if it is really nasty cold out either. I realize winter may be nasty in Connecticut, but sure hope it is much warmer in that basement then it is outside.

Sitting in the spa when it is 40 degrees outside is kind of fun - mine works just fine in those conditions. The water cools down after a while, but I am ready to get out anyway by the time it starts getting too cool.
 
iwire said:
You and jap had been discussing locating the disconnecting means remotely but leaving the panel in place.

In my opinion that would not be prohibited.



In my opinion we would get to do exactly that.
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david said:
Thank you for pointing that out it was a quick search on the term switching devise. I went back and re=looked and did not find a definition for the term “switching device.”

In my opinion any breaker marked SWD would be considered a switching device

Device. A unit of an electrical system that carries or controls electric energy as its principal function.

Switch, General-Use. A switch intended for use in general distribution and branch circuits. It is rated in amperes, and it is capable of interrupting its rated current at its rated voltage.

680.43 Indoor Installations. (C) Wall Switches. Switches shall be located at least 1.5 m (5 ft), measured horizontally, from the inside walls of the spa or hot tub.

680.22 Area Lighting, Receptacles, and Equipment. (D) Switching Devices. Switching devices shall be located at least 1.5 m (5 ft) horizontally from the inside walls of a pool unless separated from the pool by a solid fence, wall, or other permanent barrier. Alternatively, a switch that is listed as being acceptable for use within 1.5 m (5 ft) shall be permitted.
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Based on 680.22(D) I am going to have to change my position and say that either the tub or panel must move to comply with current code.
 
Let's assume for a minute that this Hot Tub is not even being fed from the panel in the picture.
I still say violation.

If a breaker in the panel pictured is the disconnect I still say violation.
If someone came out of this panel to a disconnect more than 5' away from the tub and then came back to feed the tub, I still say violation.

If the breaker in the panel is the disconnect for the tub and it was more than 5' away I say ok.
If the panel was out of sight and a disconnect was installed at least 5' away from the tub I say ok.

If there was a permanent barrier built between the tub and this panel or a disconnect that might happen to be closer than 5' where you couldn't reach the disconnect from the tub I'd say try to find a better place to put the tub, but, still seems it would be ok.

JAP>
 
jap said:
Let's assume for a minute that this Hot Tub is not even being fed from the panel in the picture.
I still say violation.

If a breaker in the panel pictured is the disconnect I still say violation.
If someone came out of this panel to a disconnect more than 5' away from the tub and then came back to feed the tub, I still say violation.

If the breaker in the panel is the disconnect for the tub and it was more than 5' away I say ok.
If the panel was out of sight and a disconnect was installed at least 5' away from the tub I say ok.

If there was a permanent barrier built between the tub and this panel or a disconnect that might happen to be closer than 5' where you couldn't reach the disconnect from the tub I'd say try to find a better place to put the tub, but, still seems it would be ok.

JAP>
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and it took 4 pages of discussion to get here ?????
 
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