House wiring in emt?

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hbiss

EC, Westchester, New York NEC: 2014
Location
Hawthorne, New York NEC: 2014
Occupation
EC
Re: House wiring in emt?

It's strange how NM is allowed to be used in your house where your family sleeps, but not used in health care facilities.
NM is probably the MOST restricted wiring method.
 

ryan_618

Senior Member
Re: House wiring in emt?

I know a lot of people may not like hearing it, but NM cable does have a very good track record. How many fires/failures have been caused by it since it's inception?
 
Re: House wiring in emt?

To base the safety record of NM on it is cause of fire is not a true testament to how safe it is or isn't.

I am a full time firefighter / paramedic. I am an electrical contractor on my off days. During my days at the fire house I am also the department co-ordinator for fire investigations. I cann't begin to say how many fire investigators blame every fire that they cann't figure out the true cause of on the electrical system or some component of it.

Even though in our area EMT is the only thing allowed it would be pretty near impossible (unless protected by an FP breaker) for a 15 amp #14 wire to burn through a conduit. Yet I have seen this same situation get pegged on the electic.
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
Re: House wiring in emt?

As long as NM is installed correctly it should be no more dangerous than other methods.

It can not be used in health care facilities due to the fact it only provides one grounding path while two grounding paths are required in health care facilities.

It does not spontaneously combust, what it can do is produce more smoke than the same amount of conductors in a metal jacket or raceway.

But the amount of smoke produced by all the NM jacket in a house is going to be an insignificant portion of the smoke produced by the homes furnishings.

Hey if you want to wire your house with EMT more power to you, :) but it seems strange that folks with little to no experience with NM believe it to be such a poor method.

Is there any evidence that NM houses are burning more frequently than EMT houses?

JMO, Bob

[ October 26, 2003, 04:22 PM: Message edited by: iwire ]
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
Re: House wiring in emt?

Scott I emailed you for the pictures.

As I said before I am sure I could learn something from the guys that do this all the time. :)
 

big john

Senior Member
Location
Portland, ME
Re: House wiring in emt?

Originally posted by iwire:
Hey if you want to wire your house with EMT more power to you, :) but it seems strange that folks with little to no experience with NM believe it to be such a poor method.
Maybe that stems from the fact that installing nice, slick-looking pipe runs can take so much skill and effort, whereas stapling up NM is about as straight-forward as it gets. It doesn't seem fair that in an indoor, residential enviroment, both methods seem to come out about even as far as their advantages and disadvantages.

-John
 

hurk27

Senior Member
Re: House wiring in emt?

Here in NW Indiana we have to do both some areas require only pipe and some areas the contractors don't want to pay for pipe. most of the pipe requirments are from electricans migrating from Chicago area and landing jobs as inspectors that try to change local codes but in Indiana the codes have to go through the state building commisioner and accepted to become law. and most of the local units don't bother with it as they know most wont buck them. but one contractor did because their electrican wired sevral houses in NM and the city wouldn't release them they went to court and won big time this city now allows NM but is very strict on it. this caused a few other ones to also allow NM too, but there is a coulple that won't budge and still require EMT. There is a fire zone that a city can require EMT. but I know only one city with this. To me It dosent matter ether way as they are both about just as safe when properly installed. NM is alot easer to work with and it allows for the adding of a receptacle or a light to be added just about anywhere. with pipe yes you can pull more circuits in but if you ever had to do this you would find that you have to remove alot of fixtures to jump from one to the other to get to where you want then I would say 80% of the time the pipe does not go where you need this circuit anyway so you have to try to get FMC pulled in to the wall to bring that circuit you just ran to where you need it. This is easier? with NM you just fish the new run to where you want it and be done with it. as for safty with breakers
(that most home owners won't change to a higher rating unlike the old fuses)
I have not seen a fire that was caused just by useing NM I think most fires we see today are mostly caused by whats pluged in. or over bulbing a fixture. so if it is just as safe (the CMP's think so) then I leave it up to the customer to decide, unless it is required by the Local AHJ.
 

tonyi

Senior Member
Re: House wiring in emt?

Originally posted by russ:
If it's the best and safest way to wire a house, then fine, no problem. I think it's cost verses safety.
Indeed. On a new install when the keys are handed to the new owner, properly installed NM is likely safe as anything else...for a while...

HOWEVER, from the moment the place becomes occupied, bad things start to happen. Plain steel staples can rust if there's a water problem someday, people will hang things off NM in the basement and use it like clothline, plumbers will jam an auger down without looking where it comes through and tear it up, runs through attics will have stuff piled up on them, etc.

Houses are like cars - somewhere between the showroom and the crusher a bunch of bad stuff is going to happen. There ain't many 30+ year old places that remained in stock condition.
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
Re: House wiring in emt?

Again I ask does anyone have any references to show a higher incidence of fires and or electrical problems in house wired in NM as opposed to EMT.

As some insurance company's will now not insure a home with fuses (stupid rule IMO) do you think they would miss something like NM being more dangerous?

If they had any reason to believe NM was more prone to cause claims you would see discounts for EMT houses or penalties for NM houses.

Don't just guess that NM is more dangerous. :D

[ October 27, 2003, 05:42 AM: Message edited by: iwire ]
 

roger

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Fl
Occupation
Retired Electrician
Re: House wiring in emt?

Bob, I would like to see these stats also.

Roger

[ October 27, 2003, 06:06 AM: Message edited by: roger ]
 

pierre

Senior Member
Re: House wiring in emt?

Chicago has had some tragic events that have led up to the codes they have now. Were those events directly caused by NM cable, poor workmanship, or just bad luck?

Every wiring method has its good points and its bad points, it seems to me that this can be argued till we all drop. Mike, I think that if you could post some pictures it would be interesting for most of us who have not wired a wood frame house in EMT.

I have seen the poor wiring of all wiring methods, I am one to say it doesn't matter what the method is, but who the installer is.

Pierre
 

flightline

Senior Member
Re: House wiring in emt?

I guess it's perspective. Scott, [by the way a fine contractor], russ, and myself have been brought up, I believe, with EMT pretty much the standard. You learned how to install that . And as a local industry, we do it proficiently and, generally, safely. If we were told the wire the same structure in NM, we could easily be blown away by someone that was raised on that.

The safety and integrity of any electrical system can be compromised by poor or improper installation. But, tonyi is also correct. Many times, from people in other trades calling themselves contractors. How many of us have come behind the work of a HVAC contractor or a remodeling contractor? Sometimes what we find is absolutely stifling. Yet there's a great deal of last-guy-in syndrome; most homeowners only know of the fact that they have a nice fixture, or an outlet where they need it. Never mind that it may have been installed without due care. Tonyi is also correct in that homeowners can be ignorant as to how they impact they electrical systems they own.

It is my opinion that it does come down to cost; although I have no direct statistics on this point. And I can't, with unflappable certainty, say that it is more on the material end, the labor end or both. Irrespective, I feel that we can all say that cost is the predominant factor in construction, as in most things. How many of us, those who are old enough to have memory, notice things being made cheaper, or with a tin-e-er, or in some way giving us pause for thought as to they way things used to be? I digress.

Once the home is constructed, we too have to fall back to some sort of flexible wiring method for moves, adds, or changes. In our area it is usually BX, [AC cable] or Greenfield, [flexible metal conduit]. I guess it's more of a secondary material, whereas NM is going to be used for both new work and well as add ons. Yes you can drag additional circuits through EMT, but from there you probably have to go fish.

Big John, while we try to keep our pipe runs neat, there can be a good deal of liberties taken with EMT, yet somehow meet code. New construction can be a real eye-opener. One of my biggest eye-openers came on my very first inspection. I was in a million dollar home, in a golf course community. I always believed, naively so, that on a million dollar home, you would get a "better" electrician. Nope! It all comes down to the electrician, and how much pride they take.

We may be looking at this through either end of a straw so to speak. I mean that we see this from our own perspective, knowing what we do, doing things the way we do, what is new can be foreign. Since NM seems to be the predominant wiring method throughout the country, and has been so for a long time, it is what is accepted. Here, it's just EMT. Will that change? I don't know.
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
Re: House wiring in emt?

Originally posted by scott moran:
If anyone is interested in seeing a house ruffed in EMT email me at moranelectric@comcast.net and I will send you some pictures.
Well Scott sent me some pictures of some really nice work.

I sent them with Scott's permission to Websparky and he has posted them here

Check them out, no matter what my feelings are regarding the need for EMT in wood frame dwellings, I can certainly respect the craftsmanship.
 

macmikeman

Senior Member
Re: House wiring in emt?

I liked the pictures a lot. They show a much better flair for photography than any that Joe Tadesco posts. I would red flag these guys for not properly strapping within 36" of the boxes and also for no hanger supports for the hi hat runs. Just because its a house doesn"t mean you should be able to forget the supports.
 

tom baker

First Chief Moderator & NEC Expert
Staff member
Location
Bremerton, Washington
Occupation
Master Electrician
Re: House wiring in emt?

Very nice. I did an office a few years ago with emt & I used caddy snap in condit straps, no need to bend an offset. You put the straps up first.
I notched a lot of the walls.
 
G

Guest

Guest
Re: House wiring in emt?

Wondering if EMT straps are added at a later date, or is that rough-out considered done?

358.30 Securing and Supporting.
EMT shall be installed as a complete system as provided in Article 300 and shall be securely fastened in place and supported in accordance with 358.30(A) and (B).
(A) Securely Fastened. EMT shall be securely fastened in place at least every 3 m (10 ft). In addition, each EMT run between termination points shall be securely fastened within 900 mm (3 ft) of each outlet box, junction box, device box, cabinet, conduit body, or other tubing termination.
That's my NEC contribution for today :)

Traditional.jpg
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
Re: House wiring in emt?

We have to remember not try to apply the NEC to this job.

I am fairly certain Chicago has it's own code.
 

websparky

Senior Member
Location
Cleveland, Ohio
Re: House wiring in emt?

macmikeman,

I liked the pictures a lot. They show a much better flair for photography than any that Joe Tadesco posts.
Maybe you would care to submit some of your photos for comparison?

Like the old saying goes; Any publicity is good publicity as long as they spell the name right!

Hence, T E D E S C O .
 
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