House woes

ptonsparky said:
Fix the one and you will be closer to the second.

Your set up isn't that much different than mine other than I have a VFD on the well and No dimming on the LEDs. All electric and only load on the POCO transformer.
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I may have to look into a VFD on the well. I have no idea how old the pump is. I think we are the only one on the transformer. Maybe the neighbors house too.

tortuga said:
The pictures appear to show a copper wire and aluminum wire sharing the same lug.
You have two issues there CU and AL mixing and that lug is probably not listed for two conductors.
View attachment 2575825
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good eye. Aluminum wires are to the Poco. Still not sure what the yellow one next to it is for. The meter is likely original to the house (79). The lug is dual 4/0 lugs are dual rated, maybe the meter is too...20250224_174609.jpg


Strathead said:
Just curious, "some lights" your washer is 120v, so the lights that flicker, are they on the same phase or the other phase, or both?
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Good question. I'll check when I get home. I switched phases on the lighting because the coffee maker would cause the UCL to flicker/dim. Separate dedicated circuits but it would still happen. In troubleshooting the UCLs also found some of the fixtures were wired backwards (existing chandeliers that I changed lamps on) . I thought I had an open neutral because fixtures would change brightness depending on which ones were on. Problem did not exist with incandescents. Fixing one problem at a time.

tortuga said:
Based on the quality of the neutral lug job I would be suspicious of those 'butt-splices' in the service entrance conductors.
I would replace the meter base and pull new service entrance conductors from the ATS to the meter.
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Original panel was an old cutler hammer. I am not sure what amperage since the tub is used as a pullbox only now. I have to assume it was 200A based on the conduit size that looks original. In Chicago usually Poco runs the cables to the meter on residential.

At some point someone added a Siemens 200A panel. I am going to assume the current load side cable is when that was installed. It's pulled through the old tub and looks like it would had been long enough to land on the main breaker.

8-9 years ago previous owner installed the generator/ats. That is when they were butt-spliced and ran through the panel.

Point being-3 different people were involved on all these changes.

CoolWill said:
A little dimming when a load kicks on is normal and has always existed. Some of it can be mitigated by increasing the conductor size at the service, but it is often due to voltage drop across the utility transformer itself.

But LED flicker is caused by appliances that rapidly switch on and off, like new direct drive washers and inverter heat pumps. PWM heating in new ovens is also something I noticed causing flicker. We're in a perfect storm of brand new technologies that don't play well with each other and no one is sure who is to blame.
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I feel like sometimes the oven makes the Soraa lamps flicker, only when they are dimmed really low though. Pretty sure the washer is direct drive. What is wierd is one appliance seems to effect one fixture, but a different appliance affects a different fixture....both fixtures on the same circuit and same type of dimmers.

My last house was all LED lamps (same brands) and I had zero issues.
 
More updates from last night. Hopefully I remember it all...

  • Inrush on well pump is 42 amps. Run amps is 7. That's a hefty startup load across both phases.
  • I tried a plug-in UPS that I use for my computer on the Washing machine, kitchen lights still dimmed with agitator. I should have unplugged the UPS from house power to see if problem persisted but I didn't even think about that until my drive to work.
  • I tried different lamps in kitchen fixtures while washing machine was running.
    • Various LEDs and CFL did not dim/flicker. The porch lights dim too. I think I have traced the problem to clear LEDs. All lights effected in the house seem to be clear. Not enough electronics to hide in clear lamps maybe?
  • Voltage remained constant when everything was running. 239-240v across phases.
  • Kitchen lights and washing machine are on different phases.
  • Amperage seems pretty balanced across the phases
    • With 2 furnaces, dryer, washer, running, I was seeing 18-22 amps. Approx 4 amps out of balance.
    • B phase fluctuated approx 1-2 amps up and down.
    • Washing machine is on A phase.
  • I have a 7.5KW electric heater in the garage. I don't notice any dimming when that kicks on.
I have an Ego power inverter which peaks at 800W. I may try plugging washer into that to see if it runs and if flicker continues with washing machine not on house power. 2nd option is to run an extension cord to another outlet in the house. Coincidentally the lights flickering with the washing machine are also the ones closest proximity to the washing machine. I am unsure if the trigger is within the power system or if it affects them externally. I am going to place the clear lamps in other areas of the house to see if they are affected the same.

The well pump- not sure there's much I can do other than VFD or see if they have a soft start pump.
 
Years ago I wired up a million dollar house . The HVAC company never gave me power spec on the two heat pumps they were insalling so ran 6/2 for maybe 20' to outdoor disconnects. House had 2 by 6" exterior walks with maximum insulation plus a foot in attic. Each unit was only 2.5 or 3 tons each. Every time one of the refrigerant compressors started lights in house would slightly dim. Double checked all wires on the 80 circuit breakers and meter can. Finally asked the neighbor a few hundred feet away if his lights dimmed during compressor start up and he said yes. His service ran over 225' underground to what it appeared the cheap utility company made two cost saving mistakes. Should have ran larger feeder and a larger KVA,transformer that with the three large homes along with thier four car garages and a nice size barn had a total of 1,000 amps of 120/240 volt services. U!tily company refused to upgrade anything.
 
garbo said:
Years ago I wired up a million dollar house . The HVAC company never gave me power spec on the two heat pumps they were insalling so ran 6/2 for maybe 20' to outdoor disconnects. House had 2 by 6" exterior walks with maximum insulation plus a foot in attic. Each unit was only 2.5 or 3 tons each. Every time one of the refrigerant compressors started lights in house would slightly dim. Double checked all wires on the 80 circuit breakers and meter can. Finally asked the neighbor a few hundred feet away if his lights dimmed during compressor start up and he said yes. His service ran over 225' underground to what it appeared the cheap utility company made two cost saving mistakes. Should have ran larger feeder and a larger KVA,transformer that with the three large homes along with thier four car garages and a nice size barn had a total of 1,000 amps of 120/240 volt services. U!tily company refused to upgrade anything.
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I am not ruling out utility power not being the issue yet. I know my feeder cable is certainly undersized for the distance. I do have a call into the utility company to see what they have to say. That seems a separate issue from the washing machine.
 
A regular UPS just passed the power through it, so it won't help. A "double conversion online" UPS is what you would need for isolation between input and output.

I wonder if some capacitance in the circuit could help? Since the capacitor wants to hold the voltage up, would it smooth out the ripple like a bulk capacitor in a DC circuit?
 
RoyB said:
I may have to look into a VFD on the well. I have no idea how old the pump is. I think we are the only one on the transformer. Maybe the neighbors house too.



good eye. Aluminum wires are to the Poco. Still not sure what the yellow one next to it is for. The meter is likely original to the house (79). The lug is dual 4/0 lugs are dual rated, maybe the meter is too...
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I would be surprised if that neutral lug is dual rated, with copper and AL touching your asking for problems.
RoyB said:
8-9 years ago previous owner installed the generator/ats. That is when they were butt-spliced and ran through the panel.

Point being-3 different people were involved on all these changes.
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I'd check those splices and post a photo of them.
 
tortuga said:
I would be surprised if that neutral lug is dual rated, with copper and AL touching your asking for problems.

I'd check those splices and post a photo of them.
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They change sizes within the panel (when they were extended). I am not aware of any dual size butt splices and I don't think I want to open up the tape while they are energized.

20250225_171940.jpg
 
This idea may seem out there but I've seen it work on tripping gfcis. You could get a FT-240-43 ferrite toroid core. they are like 12 bucks on amazon and rap the circuit conductors for the lights around it a couple times. maybe interference from all the appliances could be causing the issues. this core should block that if that is the issue. I've never tried it with lighting and you have lots of other variables but it might be worth a shot.
 
Floridasparky17 said:
This idea may seem out there but I've seen it work on tripping gfcis. You could get a FT-240-43 ferrite toroid core.
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AFAIK FT cores choke higher frequency current in the kHz range, which trips GFCI’s, but wont clean up the harmonic spectrum like isolation xfmrs, perhaps advised for some offending appliances.
 
I just quickly skimmed through this thread so may have missed this but, is the flickering the same when running on generator?

I question that simple indent type crimp on those AL compression lugs.
 
curt swartz said:
I just quickly skimmed through this thread so may have missed this but, is the flickering the same when running on generator?

I question that simple indent type crimp on those AL compression lugs.
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Not running on the generator, yeah I question that also.
 
RoyB said:
They change sizes within the panel (when they were extended).
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So let me see if I understand your service;
Original 1979 200A utility meter outside on the house ->
service conductors go from the meter into the interior of the house and enter gutted original panel (Eaton tub) ->
pass thru this to a newer Siemens panel ->
are spliced in the Siemens panel with the splices shown->
exit the Siemens panel and enter the ATS
Ats is now the Service disconnect.
Then a 200A feeder goes back to the Siemens panel via a different raceway.
 
tortuga said:
So let me see if I understand your service;
Original 1979 200A utility meter outside on the house ->
service conductors go from the meter into the interior of the house and enter gutted original panel (Eaton tub) ->
pass thru this to a newer Siemens panel ->
are spliced in the Siemens panel with the splices shown->
exit the Siemens panel and enter the ATS
Ats is now the Service disconnect.
Then a 200A feeder goes back to the Siemens panel via a different raceway.
Click to expand...

Correct. Underground meter on the outside of the house. At some point they enclosed the area and now it's a mud room with concrete floor and the meter is now out of the elements.

You can see in the ATS picture previous page incoming service is the right conduit. Load side is the left conduit (top of ATS).
 
Roy:

Wait, wait, how did the meter being indoors ever pass inspection? As a northern Illinoisian (Chicago licensed), who has to deal with Com Ed, how did this get passed by the AHJ????

Just curious.

Howard
 
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