How do we get arc faults taken out of the code!

[James L]

Would like to know there reasoning why to amend so maybe other states might listen.

I talked with the head of codes enforcement, and it seemed anecdotal. He seemed to be a really level-headed guy.

He just seemed to be generally unimpressed.

But you could probably call and have a chat with him about it. He seemed willing enough to express himself.

 

[letgomywago]

I don't have trip issues with AFCI. But they are expensive. I have on the other hand been to many house where arching is occurring due to stab in style switches and duplex. You would need to get rid of these style devices to get rid of AFCI breakers. Now your looking at adding a lot our hours in make up time.

I know people who use backstabbing and don't have issues with afci so if they work then they are perfect backstabs. Biggest issues I find are "fancy" appliances I wish that if they needed to leave it in place that they could just put a USB c on all the breakers and let me use an app like truck chips work. I know levitons smart afci is supposed to be able to do that but I don't care for their product vs others.

 

[BarryO]

See if you can get amendments in your local code. The Oregon Electrical Specialty Code contains numerous amendments for GFCI's and AFCI's. My favorite: "AFCI protection shall not be required for optional, dedicated outlets that supply equipment known to cause unwanted tripping of AFCI devices."

 

[electrofelon]

See if you can get amendments in your local code. The Oregon Electrical Specialty Code contains numerous amendments for GFCI's and AFCI's. My favorite: "AFCI protection shall not be required for optional, dedicated outlets that supply equipment known to cause unwanted tripping of AFCI devices."

Yes probably the best thing we could do as electricians is show up at our local/state meetings where theses things are decided. In general hardly anyone shows up to these to give input. I am guilty of not going. I always intend to but either forget or am too busy. I remember reading the notes once for the Washington state code adoption, and there was a comment by someone there (something like) "...well very few people show up to these meetings with input so I think we are ready to go ahead and vote on this newest code adoption...."

 

[Rex Hungerford]

I started another thread today and no one replied yet. Maybe someone knows here. I have a outbuilding that is not connected to the main house. A garage with a space above. The customer is making a rec room above. Wet bar, bathroom and media system. I don't see this as a Dwelling Unit as it does not have cooking. Yet I am told any building on a residential property is considered a dwelling unit, so any space per NEC 2020 - 210.12 has to have AFCI. Is this correct. Or a vague statement and the AHJ just making you put them in because he wants them.

 

[Rex Hungerford]

Totally off topic, but I think a way bigger issue than AFCI is Service disconnects have to be in separate compartments. I have so many jobs now where people have 2 rapid car chargers and all electric homes. I need a 320/400 service with 2 x 200A CB disconnects. Its impossible to find an all in one unit with the 2 breakers in separate compartments. I have to go to a gutter, then to 2 x disconnect switch on the outside wall. Thats a lot more money than 36 AFCI.

 

[AC\DC]

For the Oregon people get ready for the amendment to end come October 1 2023 read this one proposed https://www.oregon.gov/bcd/codes-stand/Documents/23oesc/23oesc-stone-210.12aex3.pdf

Here a list https://www.oregon.gov/bcd/codes-stand/Pages/oesc-adoption.aspx
Like you said it’s a scam.

 

[Rex Hungerford]

For the Oregon people get ready for the amendment to end come October 1 2023 read this one proposed https://www.oregon.gov/bcd/codes-stand/Documents/23oesc/23oesc-stone-210.12aex3.pdf

Here a list https://www.oregon.gov/bcd/codes-stand/Pages/oesc-adoption.aspx
Like you said it’s a scam.

I put money that one passes. Any time you make more regulation it passes. You can never get regulation out of the system once in.
It does show a level of ignorance too. There are motors and other equipment that cause issues. I don't think the intent is to protect old failing equipment.

 

[hanklazard]

I have many arc fault breakers trip but many times it's due to back stabbed receptacles and sloppy work. Other times they've tripped due to dimmers and led bulbs. Arc-faults are unpredictable but the quality of work is so bad in many new homes that it's hard to tell how much of it is due to sloppy work and how much is due to arc faults being overly sensitive.

 

[James L]

I have many arc fault breakers trip but many times it's due to back stabbed receptacles and sloppy work.

Just curious. Can you flesh that out a bit?

How does a back stabbed receptacle trip an arc fault breaker? And what kind of sloppy work trips an arc fault breaker?

I'll disclose that I'm a big advocate of one, and a loud opponent of the other. But never seen either one necessarily cause arc fault breakers to trip

 

[electrofelon]

. Yet I am told any building on a residential property is considered a dwelling unit

Ummm, no.

 

[macmikeman]

Is that because that's the brand that did this to us?

Honestly I didn't remember about that until you mentioned... Not sure but I think they were...............

I've made jokes elsewhere about how they "possibly" only have a push button that trips the breaker when you push the button, and a plain old magnetic and thermal trip like them old timey $5.65 non bolt on circuit breakers have (had)............

 

[Rick 0920]

I think the only way we will be able to not use the "new and improved" electrical materials that are on the market would be to eliminate those who benefit monetarily by the requirement of said material from the code making panels. If the CMP's were comprised of electricians and engineers and NOT manufacturers, a lot of this BS wouldn't be happening.

 

[tortuga]

For the Oregon people get ready for the amendment to end come October 1 2023 read this one proposed https://www.oregon.gov/bcd/codes-stand/Documents/23oesc/23oesc-stone-210.12aex3.pdf

It did not pass when the board voted on it, I think its someone from NEMA's job to go to every state meeting and propose they adopt the model code and get rid of any local amendments. They probably make more than me doing that LOL

 

[blueheels2]

I hate them but I really don’t have any problems on what I install. That said I avoid Siemens like the plague. Those are the only afci’s that I have ever had a problem with (troubleshooting on service calls).

 

[BarryO]

Yes probably the best thing we could do as electricians is show up at our local/state meetings where theses things are decided. In general hardly anyone shows up to these to give input. I am guilty of not going. I always intend to but either forget or am too busy. I remember reading the notes once for the Washington state code adoption, and there was a comment by someone there (something like) "...well very few people show up to these meetings with input so I think we are ready to go ahead and vote on this newest code adoption...."

Yep, I remember in my 30's when there was a conference I really didn't want to travel out of town to go to, and my boss told me "95% of getting something done is showing up". I learned since then that the 95% figure is way too low.

 

[tshea]

AFCI in kitchens not required in WI. Smart move in my opinion. Some reefers don't like AFCI.
To answer your question, start local. Get it removed from local/ state rules.
If a majority of states remove it, NEC may follow suit but I doubt it.
Good luck.