how many outlets on a breaker

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LarryFine said:
If I'm correct, he's saying that he'd rather have the majority of the starting-current-induced voltage drop occur on the compressor's feed than the house's feeder. Reducing the compressor's supply size would reduce the voltage sag on the rest of the system.
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Larry's nailed down what I was getting at.

But I do question this

Of course, the compressor will have a slightly shorter life
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Why would you think that?

What does a soft start do?

It limits the current at start up just as 14 AWG would limit the inrush.

Keep in mind we are not delaying the motors wind up in seconds but in fractions of a seconds.

I think we could ague that limiting the start up current will make the motor last longer as long as the VD is not so great that the motor does not spin up in a reasonable amount of time.
 
iwire said:
Why would you think that?

What does a soft start do?

It limits the current at start up just as 14 AWG would limit the inrush.

Keep in mind we are not delaying the motors wind up in seconds but in fractions of a seconds.

I think we could ague that limiting the start up current will make the motor last longer as long as the VD is not so great that the motor does not spin up in a reasonable amount of time.
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You did grasp my point, obviously. And yes, it is the lengthening of come-up-to-speed time that I'm talking about. I always advise people to start any motor, such as a ceiling fan, on high speed, and then set slower once it's spinning. It may be one second, but the motor stays cooler during start-up.

(Disclaimer: I did say "slightly.")

Have you ever noticed that, while (non-push-on/push-off) rotary dimmers have the dimmest end of the range adjacent to the on-off position, rotary motor speed controllers have the highest speed adjacent to the on-off position? That's so they'll be started on high-speed.

As for a soft-start kit, doesn't that merely alter the start capacitor's value?
 
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LarryFine said:
Have you ever noticed that, while (non-push-on/push-off) rotary dimmers have the dimmest end of the range adjacent to the on-off position, rotary motor speed controllers have the highest speed adjacent to the on-off position? That's so they'll be started on high-speed.
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Well yes but not for exactly for the same reasons. The low speed settings on these controls do not provide enough torque to get these motors rolling.

In this case if started on low a motor may takes minutes to never getting up to the run speed. In that event I agree we would be severely heating the windings.

My compressor on the other hand would be a tad slower, nothing to worry about.

As for a soft-start kit, doesn't that merely alter the start capacitor's value?
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Around here I think we call that a cold start kit but that was not what I meant.

Somewhere between a standard motor starter and a full blown VFD is a device called a 'soft start' it limits current and torque at motor start up by reducing the voltage and than ramping it up.

Benefits are reduced voltage drop on the electrical system and less slamming of the mechanical parts of the drive systems. A gear box takes a beating with across the line starts of electric motors.

More info here http://www.lmphotonics.com/sstart.htm

I once got to see a 200 HP DC motor having a bad day going from full forward to full reverse repeatedly. The noises coming out of gear box this drove where not good. :D
 
JohnJ0906 said:
It's actually a good idea to have the smokes on with something else, such as bedroom lights, so that if that circuit trips, the HO will notice. If it is only smokes, they probably won't notice until the dead battery chirp begins.
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Such a good idea that some jurisdictions require the smokes not be on their own circuit. It also discourages the HO from shutting off the annoying low battery beeps by turning off the breaker.
 
Mike03a3 said:
Such a good idea that some jurisdictions require the smokes not be on their own circuit. It also discourages the HO from shutting off the annoying low battery beeps by turning off the breaker.
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Will it? In who's opinion? Certainly not mine...
 
Mike03a3 said:
It also discourages the HO from shutting off the annoying low battery beeps by turning off the breaker.
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I've also never heard that a lack of AC silences the low-battery peep. Au contraire!
 
stickboy1375 said:
Will it? In who's opinion? Certainly not mine...
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Duh! I was asleep when I typed that. :confused:
Some juridictions require smokes on a circuit with other things so the HO won't turn the smoke off, but obviously not because turning them off would disable a battery powered beep.
 
If you all are putting receptacles, lights, and smokes on different circuits, How many AFI's are you installing in a single family dwelling?

todd
 
toddpatrick said:
If you all are putting receptacles, lights, and smokes on different circuits, How many AFI's are you installing in a single family dwelling?

todd
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None, zero, nada, zippo, ziltch ....but then again, I'm in NJ and AFCI's are "optional" ;)
 
toddpatrick said:
If you all are putting receptacles, lights, and smokes on different circuits, How many AFI's are you installing in a single family dwelling?

todd
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Smokes are not required in Connecticut to be AFCI protected... But to answer your question, I usually only have 3 at the most, but really depends on how many bedrooms, etc.... don't want to bore you with how I wire...:)
 
toddpatrick said:
If you all are putting receptacles, lights, and smokes on different circuits, How many AFI's are you installing in a single family dwelling?
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stickboy1375 said:
.... don't want to bore you with how I wire...:)
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I do! :D

In a hypothetical 3-bedroom house, you might put the master and bath lights and receptacles (except bath receptacle(s), of course) on one circuit, and the other two bedrooms' lights and receptacles on a second one.

That's two.

In this same house, I might put all of the lights one one circuit, and all of the receptacles on a second one.

That's still two.

The difference is that I will use a 20a circuit for the receptacles (and whatever the lighting needs), and there will be one major difference: my version will have less light dimming when turning on the TV, vacuuming, etc.

This is one example of what I mean when I refer to the performance of the system. The cost difference is the #12 wire, a short-term thing; the perceived quality of the work lasts forever.

I've never had anyone complain that their lights don't dim, unless the dimmer shorted out. :wink:


Edit: I just thought of another thing: I already have one circuit feeding all of the bedrooms: the one the smokes are on.
 
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Every house is different for me, BUT, most of the time I run a homerun to each bedroom, So if its 3 bedrooms then they get 3 AFCI's.... Nothing against Larry using 12awg for his bedrooms, I use 14awg, I have never had a problem with dimming lights, so maybe where he lives the power is poorer quality...?
 
hardworkingstiff said:
Amen Larry, AMEN!

You don't get a second chance to make a first impression. Anyone considering working for themselves should make Larry's point the very first thing they learn.
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Thats a great outlook, but bad example, how does using#12 more superior to #14?
 
How does having all the bedroom recept.s on a #12 reduce dimming as opposed to having each bedroom on it's own 15A cicuit (assuming a similar house)?
 
I was taught in apprentice school that receptacle outlets in a single dwelling unit ( house ) were not governed by any specific VA rating because they are considered to be for conveinence use only. Obviously kitchens, baths, and specific loads do not apply. I forget the exact article but it was in 220 somewhere. 180 VA only applies in commercial occupencys.......:rolleyes:
 
stickboy1375 said:
Thats a great outlook, but bad example, how does using#12 more superior to #14?
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Less voltage drop for a given load in #12 compared to #14, plus isolation of the (relatively higher current) receptacle loads from the (more easily perceived) lighting loads.

I don't notice, for example, if the voltage to my computer drops by 10 or 20 volts. It could care less, I could care less, it merrily computes away. If it falls below 100v or so I'll hear a click and beep when the UPS switches over, but that's it. But if I plug my 11 amp Hoover vacuum into a receptacle connected to my bedroom lighting, the voltage drop that the Hoover creates I will also see in the dimming lights. In contrast, by putting all of the lights on a circuit together, separate from the receptacles, the only voltage drop the lights see is what is common to both separate circuits, and that's the voltage drop in the feeder back at the panel.
 
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