How many wires can be spliced together?
- Thread starter davedottcom
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peter d
Senior Member
- Location
- New England
To bring this into a practical realm, it seem the standard wire capacity of a red or blue wire nut is "however many you can fit into it without bursting it open once you torque it with your pliers." 
Typically you see this more in commercial jobs where you will have junction boxes or pull cans with multiple cables and/or conduits entering. A grounding terminal bar would be the better choice but that doesn't happen all the time. I've taken a liking to the Wago-style 10 port connectors for multiple EGC's.
At any rate, my point is that the UL listed rating of twist-on connectors often gets ignored by your average worker in the field.
Typically you see this more in commercial jobs where you will have junction boxes or pull cans with multiple cables and/or conduits entering. A grounding terminal bar would be the better choice but that doesn't happen all the time. I've taken a liking to the Wago-style 10 port connectors for multiple EGC's. At any rate, my point is that the UL listed rating of twist-on connectors often gets ignored by your average worker in the field.
- Location
- New Jersey
- Occupation
- Journeyman Electrician
Dave,
Is there really a point to this thread?
Is there really a point to this thread?
davedottcom
Senior Member
Ouch...I think so.
The point is to learn about other options when it comes to splicing.
The typical twist-on wire nut seems like it's by far, the most widely used (& misused) splicing technique, yet there are other options that are permitted to be used.
I had no idea that the "crimp style" was rated for almost twice as many conductors as the twist-on type. The fact that about 120 people viewed this post before wwhitney pointed this out, tells me about 119 people just learned that too
I always thought the crimp/method was actually an old-school design, but it's really interesting to know that it can be used for so many more conductors than a twist-on type, yet it's almost never used. Too often you see the "however many you can fit into it without bursting it open once you torque it with your pliers." method used!
I actually think the crimp tool is pretty cool now, I might just get one!
- Location
- New Jersey
- Occupation
- Journeyman Electrician
Sorry for the directness of the question. I was just wondering why you were asking. Thanks for clearing that up.
paul
Senior Member
- Location
- Snohomish, WA
But then you redefine the terms in the middle of the discussion. A Wago is a splice. :roll:
davedottcom
Senior Member
Paul,
Sorry for annoying you, I was having a hard time explaining my thoughts.
Yes the wago is definitely one type of a splice. However it?s not the type I was interested in. The major difference, which I didn?t clarify in the original post is NONE of the conductors in a wago make contact with each other & that?s why I didn?t want to include it. That?s also why I didn?t want to include a terminal strip either, for the same exact reason. Even if the wago OR terminal strips were 100 terminals long it would still only be one wire in each terminal & that?s NOT what I was talking about.
Every conductor in a wire nut type splice makes direct contact with at least one other conductor.
My thoughts were, just how many conductors are allowed to be mechanically held together at one point? Wire nut or any other means that hold the conductors in direct contact with each other.
I realize I left out some important information in the original post but like I said, I didn?t think to mention that I was only interested in splices that conductors made direct contact with each other until I already posted and started getting replies.
Hope that clarifies everything.
e57
Senior Member
- Location
- San Francisco, CA
I'm gonna go out on a limb (which is nothing new) and say the maximum number of conductors that can be spliced together is.... However many you can twist together mechanically, and penetrate with solder....
Or it's more likely it's modern equivalent - however many holes you have in a buss bar or terminal strip.
Or it's more likely it's modern equivalent - however many holes you have in a buss bar or terminal strip.
davedottcom
Senior Member
I'm gonna go out on a limb (which is nothing new) and say the maximum number of conductors that can be spliced together is.... However many you can twist together mechanically, and penetrate with solder....
Or it's more likely it's modern equivalent - however many holes you have in a buss bar or terminal strip.
Enough with the terminal strips already! I'm talking about splices that conductors are held in direct contact with the other conductors.
But as for the soldering... now you're talking! So how many conductors are permitted to be soldered together in (one) connection?
Pandemonium
New member
- Location
- Palm Bay Fl
your question is simple, they have answered your question and you still don't see it? there is no nec code its gonna depend on the connector your using!! must be related to being an eagles fan lol ouch had to go there.
davedottcom
Senior Member
Ouch! As if being an Eagles fan isn't painful enough!
When you say the answer is simple and has already been given are you referring to wwhitney's post about the NC-8 or the soldering method?
So far the most conductors permitted to be spliced in the way I described is 12.
That information was from wwhitney & it applied to a crimp style NC-8 connector & 18 gauge stranded wire.
So, Is there any means of splicing (Like I described) that would allow more than 12 conductors?
YES or NO?
If No... fine... then 12 is the Max. I can live with that.
If Yes...Please let me know what it is & how many conductors it permits.
Cold Fusion
Senior Member
- Location
- way north
e57
Senior Member
- Location
- San Francisco, CA
Terminal strips - are "splicing"... Still not limited by code - just the rating...
As for soldering - so long as solder is not the only means of connection - it depends on how many you can get together... As for a limit - it would depend on skill, and what is acceptable by your AHJ - who might think you've lost the plot if you did more than 10 or so... Only because there are so many other reputable methods, and those type of skills not only are dead, but escape the limits of inspectabilty in this modern era. That said I could tap a #8 a 100 times in a row in #14, or until I got tire of doing so... Or replicate 250 MCM out of #12 conductors into a single pig-tail splice - IF I really tried - but any inspector I know would only see it as an excercise of skil, not something to allow use of...
busman
Senior Member
- Location
- Northern Virginia
- Occupation
- Master Electrician / Electrical Engineer
I think you'll find that the limit of 6 wires in a wirenut is just simple geometry. To surround a single wire completely you need six more wires (they form a hexagon). So, 7 wires is the minimum number that would allow one wire to have NO contact with the spring in the wirenut. If you don't pre-twist, this one wire in the center of the bundle could be straight and just pull out of the middle of the other 6 that are wrapped around it.
Mark
Mark
davedottcom
Senior Member
Busman! I have no idea about your Hexagon theory but...
You understand what I'm talking about!
Thank You!
kwired
Electron manager
- Location
- NE Nebraska
Take a look at the end of a stranded conductor that is made up out of 7 strands. There is one center strand and the other six encircle it. If you place seven conductor the same size in a wire nut they will line up in same way as the strands in a seven strand conductor do. The center conductor is not in contact with the spring of the connector and it simply held by pressure from the surronding conductors, it should pull out easier than the other six will.
A 19 stranded conductor is the same as a 7 strand with 12 more strands around it. Same thing here if 19 conductors are in a wire nut all the same size only 12 of them will be in contact with the connector itself the center ones are held by pressure only.
winnie
Senior Member
- Location
- Springfield, MA, USA
- Occupation
- Electric motor research
Dave,
I think that we really have several different 'competitions' and that you are focusing on one of them:
1) How many conductors can be spliced by a device where any one conductor has _direct contact_ with any other conductors in the splice.
2) How many conductors can be spliced by a device in which the attachment to _all_ of the conductors is made by a single operation.
3) How many conductors can be spliced together by a single device which fits in a normal branch circuit junction box.
4) How many conductors can be spliced together by a single device that you buy as a single device.
IMHO you seem to imply that you are looking for 1), but I think that that from the acceptable examples given you are really asking about 2).
If you think about it along the lines of busman's post, the answer to 1) is going to be 3 or 4, at least for reasonable length splicing devices. Any more conductors, and you will pretty much be guaranteed that some conductors in the set will be connected via an intermediate conductor. A wire nut that holds 6 conductors will not have all of those conductors touching all of the others.
But the answer to 2) really is quite practical and interesting...how many conductors do you need to prep, orient, and hold in exactly the correct position all at the same time, while attaching the device. To put a dozen wires under a single crimp, each wire coming out of a separate cable, all aligned...you would almost need a jig to hold the wires together in the first place....
If I were splicing a dozen conductors in a junction box, I think that I would want to use a 'terminal strip' type splice, something that would allow me to make up and attache only one or two of the conductors at a time.
-Jon
I think that we really have several different 'competitions' and that you are focusing on one of them:
1) How many conductors can be spliced by a device where any one conductor has _direct contact_ with any other conductors in the splice.
2) How many conductors can be spliced by a device in which the attachment to _all_ of the conductors is made by a single operation.
3) How many conductors can be spliced together by a single device which fits in a normal branch circuit junction box.
4) How many conductors can be spliced together by a single device that you buy as a single device.
IMHO you seem to imply that you are looking for 1), but I think that that from the acceptable examples given you are really asking about 2).
If you think about it along the lines of busman's post, the answer to 1) is going to be 3 or 4, at least for reasonable length splicing devices. Any more conductors, and you will pretty much be guaranteed that some conductors in the set will be connected via an intermediate conductor. A wire nut that holds 6 conductors will not have all of those conductors touching all of the others.
But the answer to 2) really is quite practical and interesting...how many conductors do you need to prep, orient, and hold in exactly the correct position all at the same time, while attaching the device. To put a dozen wires under a single crimp, each wire coming out of a separate cable, all aligned...you would almost need a jig to hold the wires together in the first place....
If I were splicing a dozen conductors in a junction box, I think that I would want to use a 'terminal strip' type splice, something that would allow me to make up and attache only one or two of the conductors at a time.
-Jon
ArcNSpark
Member
- Location
- Coventry, RI
Funny story. Had to troubleshoot pole lights at a country club. Kept tripping the breaker whenever it rained heavily. After two solid days of guesswork, we found a Kristy box that had to have been at least 20 years old and was full of water. The 4AWG wires that were spliced together were held together with a 3/8" Romex connector with a mile of tape on them. Turns out it was the founder of our company who had done that job right after coming back from Vietnam.
One of the guys still has the Rx connector with the wires still clamped together hanging from the rear view mirror of his work van. Says it all...
One of the guys still has the Rx connector with the wires still clamped together hanging from the rear view mirror of his work van. Says it all...
Soldered Conductors
Soldered Conductors
One could solder the conductors once they have been twisted together.
Preferred method is with the soldering iron or gun at the bottom of the twisted wires and to apply the solder from the top. Once the solder drips through the bottom of the twisted conductors, you will have a good splice.
Soldered Conductors
One could solder the conductors once they have been twisted together.
Preferred method is with the soldering iron or gun at the bottom of the twisted wires and to apply the solder from the top. Once the solder drips through the bottom of the twisted conductors, you will have a good splice.
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