How to charge for troubleshooting?

[K8MHZ]

Locating equipment is expensive if you are going to use it only once or twice. But if you trouble-shoot all the time then you will run into harder problems maybe once a month.

I don't like to cut holes in walls until I'm sure there is a need to do so.

Me either!

 

[K8MHZ]

Why look for a break in the neutral? It's just a wire.

Once you know the neutral is open and you know which circuit you are dealing with it's simple to disconnect the neurtal (return ) of that circuit at the panel and now you are looking for a break in a conductor (wire). It's as simple to find open neutral as an open hot conductor.

I like to trace a cable from the panel out, make sure the home run is OK.

If the hot and neutral are both open, like yesterday's job, it's pretty though to locate the breaker the circuit should be fed from.

All other things being equal, I start at the point where it's easiest to connect my equipment. What I find with that determines where I will go next.

It's never the same. That's why I like it.

Not related, but today I got a GFCI breaker to do an autopsy on. I think tearing things apart and looking at the innards help me troubleshoot. It's kind of fun, too.

 

[readydave8]

We must be in the box burrying capital of the world because I find buried boxes and splices all the time.

Me too, also flying taps, sometimes buried flying taps, and when they did use a box--no cover.

 

[readydave8]

I don't so much have a problem with twisted together grounds with no wire nut -- if they are twisted tight for at least a couple inches, though I still agree that it doesn't comply with NEC.

Seen many of those that are likely a better connection then a poorly installed wire nut or or other connector. Can't recall ever seeing one that you could blame for having failed continuity, again if twisted tight and for at least a couple inches.

my recent experience has been opposite, around here inspectors pass grounds twisted together without wire nut or crimp etc. so lately I've been running in to "open ground" on HI reports, often houses from the '90's, open up box and there's a beautiful spiral, shake it and get ground.

So I'm wondering if it is oxidation causing this? or thermal expansion and contraction?

Another thing I have noticed is that I often find bad connection when hot or neutral twisted (tightly) without wire nut, but rarely ground. I think it's because I look for bad connections on hot and neutral more often, usually people call when light stops working, but not when it becomes not grounded

 

[kwired]

If the hot and neutral are both open, like yesterday's job, it's pretty though to locate the breaker the circuit should be fed from.

All other things being equal, I start at the point where it's easiest to connect my equipment. What I find with that determines where I will go next.

It's never the same. That's why I like it.

Not related, but today I got a GFCI breaker to do an autopsy on. I think tearing things apart and looking at the innards help me troubleshoot. It's kind of fun, too.

Hot and neutral both open, but EGC still seems intact, first thing I've learned to look for at least in a dwelling is a tripped GFCI that is upstream in the circuit. If all conductors are open then you probably have a severed cable somewhere.

my recent experience has been opposite, around here inspectors pass grounds twisted together without wire nut or crimp etc. so lately I've been running in to "open ground" on HI reports, often houses from the '90's, open up box and there's a beautiful spiral, shake it and get ground.

So I'm wondering if it is oxidation causing this? or thermal expansion and contraction?

Another thing I have noticed is that I often find bad connection when hot or neutral twisted (tightly) without wire nut, but rarely ground. I think it's because I look for bad connections on hot and neutral more often, usually people call when light stops working, but not when it becomes not grounded

EGC's are not supposed to carry current except for abnormal conditions, so they will not expand and contract from loading changes. If they were twisted at least a couple inches and twisted fairly tight, I don't see it being that easy to lose continuity. Not saying I think this is a good idea to install this way and is not code compliant, but at same time it is a pretty good connection. I have no recollection of obvious failure of such a connection - if tight and at least a couple inches of conductor are twisted, any less is probably more of a crap shoot as to what may happen.

 

[K8MHZ]

Hot and neutral both open, but EGC still seems intact, first thing I've learned to look for at least in a dwelling is a tripped GFCI that is upstream in the circuit. If all conductors are open then you probably have a severed cable somewhere.

That's what I did and that's where I got the GFCI breaker I am going to take apart. That wasn't the problem, however. I pulled it because it would not trip when I pushed the test button.

As I mentioned, I found multiple opens in both the neutral and the hot conductors. They were all at accessible connections. The tracer signal would stop in the middle of a wall and indicated in places far from the actual cable. I have had this happen to me several times when there were open neutrals. That's why, before I cut, I make every attempt to make sure the open connection is not in a connector somewhere.

The entire house had been re-walled and nearly all the devices were pulled out and put back in by the drywallers. When they did that, several wire nuts let loose of a wire or two, and I also found a loose screw connection on a light switch with two conductors on it.

 

[readydave8]

EGC's are not supposed to carry current except for abnormal conditions, so they will not expand and contract from loading changes. If they were twisted at least a couple inches and twisted fairly tight, I don't see it being that easy to lose continuity. Not saying I think this is a good idea to install this way and is not code compliant, but at same time it is a pretty good connection. I have no recollection of obvious failure of such a connection - if tight and at least a couple inches of conductor are twisted, any less is probably more of a crap shoot as to what may happen.

Yes, I was thinking hot & cold as weather changed, not loading change, thanks.

But I still don't think it is a pretty good connection, however don't have any real evidence, just anecdotes.

And as you pointed out in an earlier post, I see plenty of bad connections under wire nuts, due to poor technique.

 

[kwired]

The entire house had been re-walled and nearly all the devices were pulled out and put back in by the drywallers. When they did that, several wire nuts let loose of a wire or two, and I also found a loose screw connection on a light switch with two conductors on it.

I would be checking in device boxes myself if I knew they were all pulled by drywallers, before looking for much of anything else

 

[K8MHZ]

I would be checking in device boxes myself if I knew they were all pulled by drywallers, before looking for much of anything else

Been there, done that, eh?



The other thing is, of course, buried boxes and splices.

Reasons number 26 and 273 why electricians don't care much for drywallers.

 

[jmellc]

Sounds like you have junk wired into junk. Spider webs into spider webs. Maybe best to give a price on replacing all the bad pieces & new wiring to them. In fact, a whole house rewire might be a good thing if he's willing to pay for it.

I have usually found BX to be the most corroded wiring I have seen in old houses. Often deteriorated worse than K/T. I hate ever having to rework a piece of it, as it nearly always tries to crumble when jacket is stripped.

Even if you get things right, no telling how soon the next problem may come along. But I know too, the customer often will not pay for anything more than bandaids and duct tape.