How to charge for troubleshooting?

[readydave8]

I'm not sure what I would tell the customer, but in my mind, if I donate labor because it's hard to find, and it is hard to fine due to previous bad work (buried box for example), then in effect I am helping to pay the money originally saved by handyman or carpenter or HO work.

If the customer is there when I'm on a difficult troubleshoot, I try to explain what I am doing, or planning to do next, and why.

But sometimes I do give a break on the labor if it takes ridiculously long to find problem, and I think I should have found it quicker. Although I think this is poor business practice because it makes customer expect it in the future.

 

[ActionDave]

.....But sometimes I do give a break on the labor if it takes ridiculously long to find problem, and I think I should have found it quicker. .....

Somewhere between sixty to eighty-five times out of a hundred the solution is easy to find.

Ninety-nine point nine times out of a hundred the solution is easy.

BUUUTTTTTTTT....The better you are at trouble shooting the more you make it look easy ANNNNDDDDDD the more likely you are to kick yourself for not finding the easy solution sooner.

Quite a conundrum.

 

[kwired]

In Michigan it's against the law to charge hourly on cars. Written estimates have to be given for work over $30, and the work can't exceed $30 of the written estimate.

I used to work for Chrysler dealerships. I got tired of getting screwed on my pay so I came into industrial maintenance.

Are you allowed to charge them for some time for investigating problems so you can ultimately know what repairs are needed - then give them an estimate for the repairs? Though with automobiles you won't find as much engine or transmission rebuilds anymore - some of the more complex things to estimate until you know what the condition of these items really is, they just pull them and put in one that is rebuilt more so then repair them these days. Same with many other components, but many other components are a little easier to single out whether they can have a simple repair or need a major overhaul.

Sure I have....

I know where it's not

Whats also a terrible thing is everything about this jobs wiring is terrible .

NM... loosely twisted grounds with no nuts or crimp lugs. Exposed round boxes in basement with many nm's in them, no covers, 2" leads.
switch and receptacle boxes back stabbed... the strip for the stabbs are about an inch long with a bunch of tape not around receptacle like you might think, but around the exposed copper from the long strips.
boxes have 2 " of wire or 12 " of wire in same box.
Bx and older bx.. short leads at box, brittle..

I'm usually pretty good at this.. skill? skill and luck ?.. with no tracer.

Been looking into studd finder tracers ($50).. Not sure if it would do the trick. Not sure if I want to spend a bundle on an actual "professional" kit as I never needed it except for whats going on here.


Yes gar... I was considering running a wire from the basement panel up stairs to a heater where I could turn the heater on and off to identify which neutral to locate which circuit.

But unless i can find that known circuit and trace it back to a working "box".. if the problem is in a buried box.. I'd never find it.

He's got a couple odd jobs I may do and decide when I'm there what I'm going to do.

In my minds eye, theres a highhat that I'm thinking about removing to see if there's any thing there.. (thinking ??? maybe not..)

This was friday when I went there, figured I'd maybe hit it with a freash head next week. Well it's next week but my head ain't fresh

I'll let ya's know.. thanks again

Rich

But you should find you have an open circuit between two other points of that circuit Maybe you don't even have a buried box but maybe a damaged cable from drilling, sawing, etc. during construction, remodel, etc. or even a nail, screw, or other fastener penetrated the wall too far and damaged cable. You may never in know specifically which one of those things happened, but will still know you lost continuity between point A and B and that the easiest solution may be to run an alternate cable between the two points instead of finding the bad spot.

I have a little homemade method I discovered by accident one day. I use my nice fluke meter in NCV mode and do a circle around each outlet. It will tell me if there are hots coming and going out of each rec. When I hit one coming in but not going out then I open that one and usually it's an open hot in box. Of course, if it's an open neutral then that's another story

I was thinking about checking there (the garage), but it's detached. And I'm still thinking about checking there !!!



My fluke is very old.. no non contact voltage setting.

wondering, how does it tell power is in and out?

If hots are all in good connected condition - you won't know until taking connections apart. But if it says a conductor that is supposed to be a neutral is "hot", chances are you are on the upstream side of a open circuit in the neutral.

Somewhere between sixty to eighty-five times out of a hundred the solution is easy to find.

Ninety-nine point nine times out of a hundred the solution is easy.

BUUUTTTTTTTT....The better you are at trouble shooting the more you make it look easy ANNNNDDDDDD the more likely you are to kick yourself for not finding the easy solution sooner.

Quite a conundrum.

The more you do this the better you get at it. We all run into things that really are puzzling at some point, and often find out something really simple as the cause of these problems. We remember those interesting situations and when something similar comes up again we often find the problem fairly quickly the next time around.

 

[mjf]

I have found over the years it is essential in residential to ask the right questions, mentally weed through the answers and magically ignore the inaccurate ones.

 

[kwired]

I have found over the years it is essential in residential to ask the right questions, mentally weed through the answers and magically ignore the inaccurate ones.

Interpreting what the user is trying to tell you is not always easy.

Just went through a problem recently with a alleged GFCI tripping problem. Ended up being a loose connection in the circuit and it happened to be feeding a GFCI receptacle - with downstream protected receptacles. Took a while to figure out the GFCI never tripped - they just lost power to it and downstream receptacles - intermittently, plus it first happened right after a refrigerator repairman had been working on the refrigerator (which was on the GFCI protection), so I first thought the repairman just happened to cause a condition while there to trip the GFCI.

 

[petersonra]

NM... loosely twisted grounds with no nuts or crimp lugs.

a common practice around here that was accepted by the inspectors for many years. I don't know how they see it these days.

 

[ritelec]

OK..... I'm a BOOB !

OK..... I'm a BOOB !

If you are on a job for three hours and don't know any more than when you started then you haven't been trouble-shooting.

The first thing to determine is which circuit/circuits that you are dealing with and this will let you know if it's all or part of the circuit that's not working. Once you know which circuit you are dealing with you can use a cable tracer from the last known good section of cable to the break.

This one job may pay for a good portion of the cost of a cable tracer.

How true .......... or a klein amprobe

the more likely you are to kick yourself for not finding the easy solution sooner.

My amprobe was old and shot.. picked up a new Klein.

I hooked up a heater to the circuit in questions neutral.. located the circuit at the panel and was able to turn it off.

Didn't turn off any of the previously opened boxes (6 on a different circuit). (I suck!)

Was able to narrow it down to possibly 3 receptacles that where on that circuit that I didn't check the other day that are behind large dressers (still hoping not a buried box or damaged wire).

Emptied two dressers. Lost connection located. Back stabbed receptacle with at second dresser.

Charging $.. I mentioned my time, what I normally charge and knocked money off. Guess he appreciated it and gave me a check back for more than I asked for.

Long story short. I feel like a boob that I could have knocked a couple hours off if I had a working amp meter and attacked it differently.

I should be taken out for a public lashing.

Thank you for all the input...

 

[K8MHZ]

Long story short. I feel like a boob that I could have knocked a couple hours off if I had a working amp meter and attacked it differently.

I should be taken out for a public lashing.

Thank you for all the input...

You need not feel like a boob. You stuck with the job, found and fixed the problem and the customer was so impressed you got a tip.

You did VERY well, and likely will do better next time.

That being said.....do not abandon nor dismiss the effectiveness of the 'old ways'.

Today, using my circuit tracer, I got readings that were just plain nuts. We had no power to two rooms that had just been remodeled.

If I had trusted the tracer, we would have been drilling holes in the walls using a See Snake to look for a buried box. But, I didn't. Something was making my spidey senses tingle.

So, I started at one box with several black wires and using the old 'short to ground' method I started tracing cables.

Found a loose connection..some stuff started working. Now the tick tracers and circuit tracers were reading in the middle of nowhere. One at a time I started tracing cables. In the end, I found at least four open neutrals and a couple open hots. One open neutral was in a box in a hall not even related to the two rooms that weren't working.

Open neutrals will make test equipment read crazy, since the ground is still intact and electrically the same as the neutral to a NC tracer.

All the bad connections were at wire nuts, yellow ones to be exact. Buchanans, I think.

Like the OP, it was persistence that prevailed for me as well. The cool part was that the homeowner is a retired electrical engineer and was having a great time watching me trace out the wires. Every time I showed him an open neutral, he just shook his head. Finally, the last one was connected and lo and behold, there was light where there was none before.

Today was a good day.

 

[Barbqranch]

All the bad connections were at wire nuts, yellow ones to be exact. Buchanans, I think.

I take it the wires weren't twisted, just laid together like the instructions say you can do (but we don't).

 

[K8MHZ]

I take it the wires weren't twisted, just laid together like the instructions say you can do (but we don't).

You are correct. I also found a switch with two wires under one screw that was loose.

 

[Fulthrotl]

Was able to narrow it down to possibly 3 receptacles that where on that circuit that I didn't check the other day that are behind large dressers (still hoping not a buried box or damaged wire).

I should be taken out for a public lashing.

Thank you for all the input...

there is nothing we could say that would come close
to what you are saying to you, about you. so we won't even try.

there is a corollary to ohm's law that goes like this:

P = D * W * .00187 * N

P = probability in percent that is the bad device
D = type of furniture (dresser)
W = weight in pounds
N = number of drawers

the only thing that beats a dresser with six drawers,
is a china hutch, or a waterbed with a 12" thick mattress, filled.

there is also an embarrassment index, that doubles the probability
if the dresser drawers have three french ticklers, and a pair of mink handcuffs
inside.

this question is on the california state license exam.

 

[junkhound]

by definition, the last box you look in will be the one with the problem.

Son bought a house 10 years ago. No power to 2 of the smoke alarm boxes in the finished basement (4500 sq ft). Have only spent a few hours looking for the source as batteries work, but have maybe spent 4 or 5 hours 15 min at a time when there. Basement 'finish drywall' was a diy project by previous owners. For all I know there is a dead end wire outside a box. You may never find the problem without tearing into walls or having expensive location equipment.

Previous answer of being upfront with HO would be my answer also.
Professional life is finding what is wrong with power circuits on aerospace stuff. Satellites are the worst, ya cannot get to them and sometime telemetry is sparse. Have seen a crew of 12 folks spend a year finding the root cause of a failure. That type
troubleshooting cost more than the cost of most residential houses.

 

[ActionDave]

there is nothing we could say that would come close
to what you are saying to you, about you. so we won't even try.

there is a corollary to ohm's law that goes like this:

P = D * W * .00187 * N

P = probability in percent that is the bad device
D = type of furniture (dresser)
W = weight in pounds
N = number of drawers

the only thing that beats a dresser with six drawers,
is a china hutch, or a waterbed with a 12" thick mattress, filled.

there is also an embarrassment index, that doubles the probability
if the dresser drawers have three french ticklers, and a pair of mink handcuffs
inside.

this question is on the california state license exam.

That right there is funny. Thank you for big smile that came at a good time.

I haven't had any trouble shooting adventures that scored very high on the Embarrassment Index, however, I have been in some houses where I based decisions on where to look for the problem by searching in the spot where I hoped I would be least likely to pick up an infectious disease.

 

[ritelec]

That right there is funny.

agreed MUCH !!

 

[kwired]

Originally Posted by ritelec NM... loosely twisted grounds with no nuts or crimp lugs.



a common practice around here that was accepted by the inspectors for many years. I don't know how they see it these days.

I don't so much have a problem with twisted together grounds with no wire nut -- if they are twisted tight for at least a couple inches, though I still agree that it doesn't comply with NEC.

Seen many of those that are likely a better connection then a poorly installed wire nut or or other connector. Can't recall ever seeing one that you could blame for having failed continuity, again if twisted tight and for at least a couple inches.

 

[PetrosA]

by definition, the last box you look in will be the one with the problem.

What keeps you up at night though is wondering whether you got it all now that you assumed the problem was taken care of in that last box. My saying is that the paranoia starts at the last box.

That right there is funny. Thank you for big smile that came at a good time.

I haven't had any trouble shooting adventures that scored very high on the Embarrassment Index, however, I have been in some houses where I based decisions on where to look for the problem by searching in the spot where I hoped I would be least likely to pick up an infectious disease.

The most embarrassing situation I was in was when I installed a towel warmer a few years back and we had to make sure there was clearance for the drawers up against that wall to slide the whole way out. It was the toy drawer.

 

[growler]

Today, using my circuit tracer, I got readings that were just plain nuts.
Open neutrals will make test equipment read crazy, since the ground is still intact and electrically the same as the neutral to a NC tracer.

Why look for a break in the neutral? It's just a wire.

Once you know the neutral is open and you know which circuit you are dealing with it's simple to disconnect the neurtal (return ) of that circuit at the panel and now you are looking for a break in a conductor (wire). It's as simple to find open neutral as an open hot conductor.

I like to trace a cable from the panel out, make sure the home run is OK.

 

[ritelec]

What keeps you up at night though is wondering whether you got it all now that you assumed the problem was taken care of in that last box.

What's keeping me up is the stuff I saw in the other boxes before I got to the last box. Some things I fixed up alittle. Some things I just cringed at and closed the box.

What's got me losing sleep is that I replaced the motion sensor on a Home Depot flood holder that the siders put in a couple years ago with no box. That I rebulbed several fixtures that the siders put in that I'm sure were done the same way.

Same as last week at a different job. But that job the siders covered over the boxes ,both soffit and wall , and just make alittle opening for a splice and screw the fixture to the structure.

How much up selling can you do? Basically almost everywhere you look it's installed wrong.

Seeing all the bad stuff keeps me up. then touching it alittle sometimes. That stuff keeps me up.

Keeps me up?

Little stuff too like when you leave the house did you lock the door or turn Off the coffee maker. I
Sometimes doubt or keep thinking about what I did as I'm in the truck leaving a job or laying in bed at night. Doubting what I did. Did I tighten that screw enough. Did I drill into something else that I don't know about? It was good when I left it but then I keep thinking about it. Maybe some kind of compulsive disorder ???


Excuse any mistakes here please. Stubby fingers. Spell check. iPhone

Argh

 

[growler]

You may never find the problem without tearing into walls or having expensive location equipment.

Locating equipment is expensive if you are going to use it only once or twice. But if you trouble-shoot all the time then you will run into harder problems maybe once a month.

I don't like to cut holes in walls until I'm sure there is a need to do so.

I did work for one company that used handymen to do their remodeling and I never went to a single service call where I didn't find a buried box or buried flying splice. In one basement remodel I found three junction boxes in the ceiling that had been buried where the splices hadn't even been made. That's three access panels needed (rental property) but still better than cutting a bunch of holes.

We must be in the box burrying capital of the world because I find buried boxes and splices all the time.

 

[PetrosA]

Keeps me up?

Little stuff too like when you leave the house did you lock the door or turn Off the coffee maker. I
Sometimes doubt or keep thinking about what I did as I'm in the truck leaving a job or laying in bed at night. Doubting what I did. Did I tighten that screw enough. Did I drill into something else that I don't know about? It was good when I left it but then I keep thinking about it. Maybe some kind of compulsive disorder ???

I just leave my coffee maker on 24/7. It's cheaper that way

Strangely, I don't ever worry about forgetting to lock the house door, but most times I have to press my key fob at least two times to make sure I locked my truck - even if I watched the lights blink the first time. I can definitely relate to worrying about what you might have drilled into after I drilled through a PVC drain line in a kitchen ceiling once. It felt just like I was drilling through wood. Luckily I hit the top side and a friendly plumber told me how to repair it with two-part epoxy.