ultramegabob
Senior Member
- Location
- Indiana
on second thought scratch that idea, it will latch every time the sensor trips, told ya I was gettin loopy. it seemed like a good idea until I started drawing it out.
How to wire?
- Thread starter Hoyt
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hastingselectric
Member
- Location
- Canon, GA
If you wire the sensors in parallel, the switches are your manual control and the sensors are active also. Should someone enter the area, the sensors will activate the lighting contactors. Otherwise you can turn the lights off with the switches. After a delay, the motion sensors will deactivate. You can also wire the switches in a way that when the lights are turned off, an additional relay drops out, the NC contacts (open when energized) close powering the sensors.
James
James
LarryFine
Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
- Location
- Henrico County, VA
- Occupation
- Electrical Contractor
If the sensors are in parallel with the switches, the switches will act as keep-the-lights-on overrides.
If the sensors are in series with the switches, the switches will act as keep-the-lights-off overrides.
If the sensors are in series with the switches, the switches will act as keep-the-lights-off overrides.
quogueelectric
Senior Member
- Location
- new york
Maybe put the sensors on a contactor pull in pull out and add momentary contact switches in parallel up on middle nc down off so momentary contact switches control manual pull in pull out latching contactors like in an asco switch. I would have to figure out the latching and exact circuitry depending on availalable locations and sensors and voltage and maybe add a relay or two to provide positive power to the relays and or contactors but you get My drift with the momentary contact switches in parallel.
LarryFine
Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
- Location
- Henrico County, VA
- Occupation
- Electrical Contractor
I do not.quogueelectric said:
quogueelectric
Senior Member
- Location
- new york
3 wire control parallel wiring to as many 2 position momentary contact switches as you want up energizes pull in down energizes pull out contactor.LarryFine said:I do not.
Up on, center no change, Down off.
Now because the sensors are either on or off I would probably use it to drive a relay.
which would be a c form feed the center with the contactor control voltage and use it to drive the contactor on and off with the motion sensors also.
Sensor drives the relay,relay drives the contactor which needs voltage to either side to change state. Any clearer? Will have to figure a way to disconnect power after state change so switches can act independant of motions maybe aux contacts on the contactor in series with 2nd relay power somehow.
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LarryFine
Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
- Location
- Henrico County, VA
- Occupation
- Electrical Contractor
Are you describing an 'on/off/auto" switching arrangement?
quogueelectric
Senior Member
- Location
- new york
I dont have any specific name for it other than fun with relays but what I am shooting for is for the switches to operate independantly of the motions.LarryFine said:
One is not dependant of the other if someone is in the space it will trip the lights on you could try to shut them off but movement will trip them back on.
Or if there was no motion or ocupancy you could use any of the switches to turn the lights on or off.
What will determine the final product is what is available or cost effective or maybe some parts are already there you could change the design and with the relays you could tie in a device to put the lights on when a call comes in, just annother on input. Edit to say I would have to figure out something to do with the time delay on the motions also i gotta go to a bbq now I cant figure out why they made me the guest of honor????
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LarryFine
Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
- Location
- Henrico County, VA
- Occupation
- Electrical Contractor
That means you want the sensors to bypass, or override, the switches. Regardless of the switch positions, motion triggers light.quogueelectric said:
Simply have the motion bypass the switches, from hot common (line) to load common (load). The only hitch is that the sensors cannot turn off a left-on manually-switched on set of lights.
You can have an OR gate or and AND gate, but not both. If you re-read my previous questions, you'll see what I'm getting at.
ultramegabob
Senior Member
- Location
- Indiana
I think I got it figgured out...
I think I got it figgured out...
If you add a relay with normally closed contact in series with the normally closed push button on the latch circuit and tap the switch leg from the motion sensor to control it, it should take care of the sensor back feeding the latch circuit.
I think I got it figgured out...
ultramegabob said:
If you add a relay with normally closed contact in series with the normally closed push button on the latch circuit and tap the switch leg from the motion sensor to control it, it should take care of the sensor back feeding the latch circuit.
quogueelectric
Senior Member
- Location
- new york
I totally understand boolean logic however,LarryFine said:
it would totally depend on the contactor is it just a simple contactor or a latching contactor or a power on power off latching contactor this changes the total logic of the entire setup.
I have gotten very elaborate with my relay setups and sometimes can become very complicated. The type of motion also will effect the logic does it power on and stay powered(long delay)
or does it only power on when motion is detected(short time delay) does it power off when the delay is timed out. Is the contactor latching?
I was just batting ideas around for a more serious working solution we have to know exactly what parts are being used.
I could draw out a system that would work for everything but this is a short week and I am starting off like a cannon tomorrow.
I always draw both a logic and wiring diagram to ensure my design will work it makes my head hurt to design this but I know I could come up with a design that would and could make everyone happy. I just dont have the time right now unless I was getting bannanas for my time. This is just throwing ideas out there for fun without specifics it will go nowhere fast.
gar
Senior Member
- Location
- Ann Arbor, Michigan
- Occupation
- EE
080526-2230 EST
Hoyt:
So far the statement of the problem has not been adequately defined to allow a possible solution.
You can not have both manual and sensor controlled ON and OFF without further clarification of the logical rules.
It is important to know the primary goal.
Is it energy conservation?
Avoid maintenance problems from broken switches?
Time saving when an alarm occurs?
If normally automatic, then need for manual over-ride when someone is working under a vehicle and won't be moving in the sensing field to keep the lights on? And what are the rules for this mode?
Also note motion sensors are not immune to failure.
Back in my posts #11 and #14 I was trying to provide suggestions to stimulate your thought on exactly what you want to do logically. As has been stated by others you have to accurately define all combinations of what you want to do, and modify the definition when you find certain requirements are in conflict with others.
.
Hoyt:
So far the statement of the problem has not been adequately defined to allow a possible solution.
You can not have both manual and sensor controlled ON and OFF without further clarification of the logical rules.
It is important to know the primary goal.
Is it energy conservation?
Avoid maintenance problems from broken switches?
Time saving when an alarm occurs?
If normally automatic, then need for manual over-ride when someone is working under a vehicle and won't be moving in the sensing field to keep the lights on? And what are the rules for this mode?
Also note motion sensors are not immune to failure.
Back in my posts #11 and #14 I was trying to provide suggestions to stimulate your thought on exactly what you want to do logically. As has been stated by others you have to accurately define all combinations of what you want to do, and modify the definition when you find certain requirements are in conflict with others.
.
ultramegabob
Senior Member
- Location
- Indiana
csparkrun said:seems like everyone is trying too hard, why not try occ. sensors (which can be wired as 3ways), you'll have the manual overide needed
what im pictureing is a firestation garage full of firetrucks, I would use sensors that were mounted on the ceiling, a wall mounted occupancy switch would be blocked by a truck pretty easily.
crossman
Senior Member
- Location
- Southeast Texas
csparkrun said:seems like everyone is trying too hard, why not try occ. sensors (which can be wired as 3ways), you'll have the manual overide needed
We aren't trying too hard. We have no idea if your "occ. sensors (which can be wired as 3ways)" is going to meet the needs of the OP or not.
Wow...sorry... be out of the office for a while.
I am requried to have automatic shut off controls fo the space. Energy savings is the idea....
Motion sensors are to really shut the lights off. Soooo...the switch left in the "on" position will allow the motion sensor to turn the lights on and off. The switch left in the "off" positon the sensors will not activate the lights. Make sense?
I believe this is accomplishable...but with the light circuits routed thru a couple lighting contractors?
I am requried to have automatic shut off controls fo the space. Energy savings is the idea....
Motion sensors are to really shut the lights off. Soooo...the switch left in the "on" position will allow the motion sensor to turn the lights on and off. The switch left in the "off" positon the sensors will not activate the lights. Make sense?
I believe this is accomplishable...but with the light circuits routed thru a couple lighting contractors?
LarryFine
Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
- Location
- Henrico County, VA
- Occupation
- Electrical Contractor
Now that we have your criterial clear, this is simple enough: You simply need to interrupt power either ahead of the line common terminal on one 3-way or after the load common terminal of the other 3-way. This can be done anywhere either one is accessible, such as in either 3-way's box.Hoyt said:
This means you'll place the sensor(s) in series with the 3-way pair, keeping the line and load terminals/wires in the proper orientation. Multiple sensors must be capapble of being paralleled, or each will need a relay with N.O. contacts paralleled, and of carrying the load, or you'll need a contactor.
crossman
Senior Member
- Location
- Southeast Texas
Now wasn't that easy? :smile:
gar
Senior Member
- Location
- Ann Arbor, Michigan
- Occupation
- EE
080529-1302 EST
Hoyt:
As indicated by Larry and crossman you have provided a logical definition that will work.
Here is my suggestion. Apparently you already have contactors to control the lights. Assume these are 120 V AC coils. This is only to correlate with comments below. Use Allen-Bradley normally open red mushroom head pushbutton switches to turn the light on. Assume for the moment that one of your contactors has an auxilliary normally open contact.
Connect as many of the red pushbuttons in parallel as you want and these go from your hot 120 V line to the contactor coil(s). When any one or more of these pushbuttons are held in the lights will be on.
In parallel with the red pushbuttons put the normally open auxilliary contact. Now as soon as you press any one of the red buttons the contactor closes and the auxillary contact closes and when you open all the pushbuttons the contactors remain energized by the auxilliary holding contact. Now the lights will never turn off until we do something else.
To turn off the lights we must break the holding contact circuit.
If you want manual turn off capability, then we need more pushbuttons. The logic I would suggest here is black pushbuttons still with normally open contacts and wired in parallel connected to another small relay with a normally close output contact in series with the contactor coil(s). So pushing any one button will open the contactor and drop out the holding contact. Whether or not you need off buttons will depend upon criteria that is not very clear.
Motion sensors. We can assume the motion sensors may not detect motion before the lights are turned on and a short time after this. If this assumption is incorrect, then you do not need the on buttons. Continuing with the assumption, then you need logic that provides some time delay after the trailing edge of the last activated motion sensor. Is this the logic you want?
.
Hoyt:
As indicated by Larry and crossman you have provided a logical definition that will work.
Here is my suggestion. Apparently you already have contactors to control the lights. Assume these are 120 V AC coils. This is only to correlate with comments below. Use Allen-Bradley normally open red mushroom head pushbutton switches to turn the light on. Assume for the moment that one of your contactors has an auxilliary normally open contact.
Connect as many of the red pushbuttons in parallel as you want and these go from your hot 120 V line to the contactor coil(s). When any one or more of these pushbuttons are held in the lights will be on.
In parallel with the red pushbuttons put the normally open auxilliary contact. Now as soon as you press any one of the red buttons the contactor closes and the auxillary contact closes and when you open all the pushbuttons the contactors remain energized by the auxilliary holding contact. Now the lights will never turn off until we do something else.
To turn off the lights we must break the holding contact circuit.
If you want manual turn off capability, then we need more pushbuttons. The logic I would suggest here is black pushbuttons still with normally open contacts and wired in parallel connected to another small relay with a normally close output contact in series with the contactor coil(s). So pushing any one button will open the contactor and drop out the holding contact. Whether or not you need off buttons will depend upon criteria that is not very clear.
Motion sensors. We can assume the motion sensors may not detect motion before the lights are turned on and a short time after this. If this assumption is incorrect, then you do not need the on buttons. Continuing with the assumption, then you need logic that provides some time delay after the trailing edge of the last activated motion sensor. Is this the logic you want?
.
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crossman said:
Yup, but I am not sure it is a good application.
We are talking about a manual off scenario, like in a conference room where you want to force the lights off during a presentation.
I think in this application, just let the occ sensors do what they do... if the switch is left off, you don't have the auto-on advantage...
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