HVAC TEACHER AT UEI SHOULDNT BE TEACHING ELECTRICAL

[JFletcher]

Pick your battles. We've all had moronic teachers. Get your degree/certificate, and move on is my advice. You're not the first student smarter than the teacher. and keep in mind that the NEC is not the only way things are done, and there are countless threads here where two or more equally qualified electricians have completely differing points of view on a topic. Never stop learning tho, and never let a single person torque you up to the point where you walk out.

You're there to learn HVAC, not the finer points of electricity. It doesnt really matter if your teacher says the Easter Bunny brings power to the unit. Learn what you're paying them to teach you.

 

[RumRunner]

Pick your battles. We've all had moronic teachers. Get your degree/certificate, and move on is my advice. You're not the first student smarter than the teacher. and keep in mind that the NEC is not the only way things are done, and there are countless threads here where two or more equally qualified electricians have completely differing points of view on a topic. Never stop learning tho, and never let a single person torque you up to the point where you walk out.
You're there to learn HVAC, not the finer points of electricity. It doesnt really matter if your teacher says the Easter Bunny brings power to the unit. Learn what you're paying them to teach you.

Good point.
Most of the people (here) are pretty well caught up in articles, provision and limitation of the NEC that no matter how absurd the article maybe they still blindfoldedly adhere to it without giving it a second thought.

No one should wonder why some AHJs don't even use NEC. Not undermining the credibility of the NEC panel, they are like us who had worked or still working in the electrical field and prone to the frailty of the human nature subject to misjudgment.
Sometimes the interpretation differs from one reader to another regardless of how trained the electrician might be. This is tantamount to reading and memorizing the chapter of the bible without really grasping what the meaning exactly is.

Rote learning without giving a chance for critical thinking to take hold is not always a good thing.

Anyone can be a self-proclaimed NEC expert.
This, and coupled with wikipedia and they think they possess all there is to know and there is no need for teachers.

This doesn't mean that new entrants who are bent on building a career in the electrical trade should ignore NEC.

If this statement is replete with conflicting thoughts, I welcome any comment.

 

[peter d]

this is from a grad level course on power system analysis

Wow, aren't you special. I bow before your majesty. :roll::roll:

 

[peter d]

No its not.

2x 3/8HS steel, a metal tower going a dozen feet into the earth, 69,000 volts L-G and a vastly different OCPD system is at play vs 600 volts and under.

No matter what that diagram is not relevant to the NEC.

Exactly. :thumbsup:

 

[ggunn]

As a general rule, the qualifications to teach at those for-profit "tech schools" (certificate mills) are exceedingly low...

Shortly after I got kicked to the curb by the semiconductor biz in 2008 when everything went to hell, I talked to one of them (DeVry, maybe) about doing some teaching. I am a PE with a BSEE, but since I don't have a master's degree they weren't interested.

 

[ggunn]

Nobody likes a smartass.

The art of teaching requires finesse and the introduction of increasingly sophisticated models as the process continues. The teacher may have been technically incorrect but may have been keeping things very simple for the benefit of students with little or no understanding of the fundamentals. If an instructor is talking about simple distance, rate, and time problems without invoking Einsteinian relativity he may be technically wrong (or imprecise) but challenging him on it isn't going to make you any friends with either the faculty or the students.

 

[mbrooke]

Nobody likes a smartass.

The art of teaching requires finesse and the introduction of increasingly sophisticated models as the process continues. The teacher may have been technically incorrect but may have been keeping things very simple for the benefit of students with little or no understanding of the fundamentals. If an instructor is talking about simple distance, rate, and time problems without invoking Einsteinian relativity he may be technically wrong (or imprecise) but challenging him on it isn't going to make you any friends with either the faculty or the students.

That advice is everything thats wrong with academia and the world today. Stand silent while people pontificate the very credos which get people slaughtered. Condemn (wreck the lives of) those who say the earth is round or amiodarone is dangerous in hypokalemia; Wolf-Parkinson-White with atrial fibrillation; Long QT; Accelerated Idioventricular Rhythm; pregnancy and a slew of conditions just because it goes against the dogmatic clique of wide QRS complex = class III antiarrhythmic bolus no questions asked. And yes success is profoundly misleading and reassuring when 9 out 10 times a long QRS is indeed from what class IIIs are intended to treat: ventricular tachycardia from an irritated ectopic foci pacing outside of the his-purkinje system.



There is a major difference between oversimplification and being flat out wrong- or being so overly simplified that vital information involving life safety is withheld. In this case I would make the argument for both. No matter how you slice or dice it HVAC installers are part electrician and must hold the correct knowledge which requires having the right theory. As do pool pump installers and slew of other professions which end up in lawsuits due to the myth of ground having anything to do with fault clearing.

 

[MAC702]

...No matter how you slice or dice it HVAC installers are part electrician and must hold the correct knowledge which requires having the right theory...

And we don't know they weren't getting it.

 

[mbrooke]

And we don't know they weren't getting it.

But we just did...

 

[mbrooke]

Exactly. :thumbsup:

Yup

 

[kwired]

Context is everything.

He is teaching to HVAC people who will be pretty much using a grounded source.

There are plenty of ways to offer correction, too.

I think you do understand that it is trying to get back to the source. You are correct on context, we really don't know enough about the specifics of the comment. And if he does know his electrical theory and was trying to make some situation simple for those present but someone corrects him - there are ways to acknowledge this is a simplification for the conversation at hand such as "current is trying to go back to the source, ground just happens to be one path it can take along the way."

 

[MAC702]

I think you do understand that it is trying to get back to the source. You are correct on context, we really don't know enough about the specifics of the comment. And if he does know his electrical theory and was trying to make some situation simple for those present but someone corrects him - there are ways to acknowledge this is a simplification for the conversation at hand such as "current is trying to go back to the source, ground just happens to be one path it can take along the way."

Yes.

Speaking of HVAC, these all use a 24VAC control system, powered by a small transformer. This transformer is "grounded" to the case. It supplies 24 nominal VAC. The red (usually) is "hot" and the blue (usually) or "common" wire is the grounded conductor for this circuit. The current on the red wire will absolutely short against the case if you let it. The case is the "ground." When the common wire is not brought to the thermostat (old ones didn't need it as they were just a mechanical switch) you can touch the red all you want. Worst you can do is short it against another wire and turn something on. But if the common wire is there, you have to keep it away from that one. That's your "ground" and will blow a fuse or the transformer.

For the supply voltage for the machine, the frame is also the "ground," like most appliances, and tied to the EGC for the supply circuit, and a "hot" (ungrounded) conductor will absolutely short against it. The case is the "ground."

Sounds like good info for an HVAC tech to know. We only have one side for the details of how the material was being presented.

 

[kwired]

Yes.

Speaking of HVAC, these all use a 24VAC control system, powered by a small transformer. This transformer is "grounded" to the case. It supplies 24 nominal VAC. The red (usually) is "hot" and the blue (usually) or "common" wire is the grounded conductor for this circuit. The current on the red wire will absolutely short against the case if you let it. The case is the "ground." When the common wire is not brought to the thermostat (old ones didn't need it as they were just a mechanical switch) you can touch the red all you want. Worst you can do is short it against another wire and turn something on. But if the common wire is there, you have to keep it away from that one. That's your "ground" and will blow a fuse or the transformer.

For the supply voltage for the machine, the frame is also the "ground," like most appliances, and tied to the EGC for the supply circuit, and a "hot" (ungrounded) conductor will absolutely short against it. The case is the "ground."

Sounds like good info for an HVAC tech to know. We only have one side for the details of how the material was being presented.

From OP info, we don't even know if they were discussing control voltage, power circuits, or general electrical theory.

 

[ggunn]

That advice is everything thats wrong with academia and the world today. Stand silent while people pontificate the very credos which get people slaughtered.

That's not at all what I was talking about, but I think you know that. No one is getting slaughtered from an instructor being a little vague on the concept of what is "ground". The degree to which college professors are spreading misinformation and subversion is being hugely overstated by... some people, many (most?) of whom have never been to college.

Most of the time, the guy that tries to correct the instructor in front of the class is trying to impress everyone with how much he knows rather than making things clearer for his classmates. I know because I have seen it. I have even been that guy.

 

[MAC702]

... the concept of what is "ground"...

Having been an electrician for 20+ years, and having learned about it and worked with it since I was a kid, dirt is the last thing I think of when someone says "ground." I was actually surprised at the confusion on this forum.

 

[electrofelon]

But who would say electricity is trying to get to people? :roll:

It sure is. I touch it, and despite me NOT being the path of least resistance , it gets me. It's trying to get me :roll:

 

[mbrooke]

That's not at all what I was talking about, but I think you know that. No one is getting slaughtered from an instructor being a little vague on the concept of what is "ground".

Have you ever read any electrocution cases? Some of which Mike Holt was involved in?

The degree to which college professors are spreading misinformation and subversion is being hugely overstated by... some people, many (most?) of whom have never been to college.

I'd says thats pure assumption (lets no forget Bill Gates dropped out of college), but I will make two points:


1. You have paid trolls on the internet painting all sorts of images to cause divide, subversion, myth and obfuscation. Lets keep it out of this thread. (not saying you or anyone here is a troll, far from it)

2. When solders were being electrocuted in Iraq, EEs were driving ground rods... People did not need to be college grad to figure they were wrong.

Most of the time, the guy that tries to correct the instructor in front of the class is trying to impress everyone with how much he knows rather than making things clearer for his classmates. I know because I have seen it. I have even been that guy.

And there in lays the cause. Its not about ego. Its about an honest person wanting to set something straight. Ego only gives one person reason to drive someone else down.

 

[user 100]

I just walked out of class because our teacher was trying to tell the class that electricity was going to ground. I tried to explain to him that electricity was going back to the source. I started to play mike holts video on fundamentals and he told me to turn it off that it didnt mean anything. I told him thats why he is Hvac and left. Same problem i had at wyotech. Im almost thinking screw these trade schools and just doing venetian plaster(which Im extremely good at, looks and feels just like marble) theres just no money around here..@

Fact is, we don't know what the teacher was trying to say.

We do not.

We have at best, a quip- not this guys completely world view about electrical theory.

Nobody likes a smartass.

The art of teaching requires finesse and the introduction of increasingly sophisticated models as the process continues. The teacher may have been technically incorrect but may have been keeping things very simple for the benefit of students with little or no understanding of the fundamentals. If an instructor is talking about simple distance, rate, and time problems without invoking Einsteinian relativity he may be technically wrong (or imprecise) but challenging him on it isn't going to make you any friends with either the faculty or the students.

That's not at all what I was talking about, but I think you know that. No one is getting slaughtered from an instructor being a little vague on the concept of what is "ground". The degree to which college professors are spreading misinformation and subversion is being hugely overstated by... some people, many (most?) of whom have never been to college.

Most of the time, the guy that tries to correct the instructor in front of the class is trying to impress everyone with how much he knows rather than making things clearer for his classmates. I know because I have seen it. I have even been that guy.

^^^^
This

Maybe the op was told to turn off the video NOT because it "didn't mean anything", but because it was taking time from another very important part of a lesson, and therefore wasting time. Or maybe b/c the subject had already been covered correctly, and the op didn't pay attention. Maybe the instructor was satisfied with his explanation, and why shouldn't he be? It's his class.- but again, there is the little thing again
called context......we just don't know all the details.

What we do know is that on a certain electrical forum that is renowned for its first class understanding of electrical theory, a thread has been started that has stirred up a few bright members who all know full well that current is always trying to return to its source, and who know that in the absence of another conductor, that the earth (the largest conductor there is) will become a path once given the opport........

hhhmmmmm

 

[mbrooke]

Maybe the op was told to turn off the video NOT because it "didn't mean anything", but because it was taking time from another very important part of a lesson, and therefore wasting time. Or maybe b/c the subject had already been covered correctly, and the op didn't pay attention. Maybe the instructor was satisfied with his explanation, and why shouldn't he be? It's his class.- but again, there is the little thing again
called context......we just don't know all the details.

Granted we don't know the details- but I can believe the OP. Having been in the system and institutions myself, being contrary does not grant one much respect.

What we do know is that on a certain electrical forum that is renowned for its first class understanding of electrical theory, a thread has been started that has stirred up a few bright members who all know full well that current is always trying to return to its source, and who know that in the absence of another conductor, that the earth (the largest conductor there is) will become a path once given the opport........

hhhmmmmm

A path, that at 120 volts will rarely clears an OCPD.

The passion comes from the fact this myth has cost lives.

 

[user 100]

A path, that at 120 volts will rarely clears an OCPD.

The passion comes from the fact this myth has cost lives.

Oh for sure-The dirt worshippers just cannot shake the belief that a wire tied to soil will prevent electrocution on lower voltage ckts....

A lot of 'em don't even think about any ocpd opening- they believe stuff like it somehow helps lower touch potential, like the planet absorbs electrons-you know, the juice just magically disappears.:roll:

And we know what happens when there is a fault and no good path to source to cause the spike in current that opens the ocpd & ckt- power stays on, somebody completes the ckt....

My statement in post #38 was about going off into some sort of tail chasing, rabbit hole---the earth, the largest conductor, is everywhere, so......

See what I did there?