If you were an Inspector, Would you permit this install?

Status
Not open for further replies.
mivey said:
"Where installed in grooves, to be covered by wallboard, siding, paneling, carpeting, or similar finish, wiring methods shall be protected by 0.0625-inch-thick steel plate, sleeve, or equivalent or by not less than 1.25-inch free space for the full length of the groove in which the cable or raceway is installed."
Click to expand...
mivey said:
Originally Posted by mivey
for the full length of the groove in which the cable or raceway is installed."
Click to expand...
This is what I think Al was referring to.
Click to expand...
Thanks for the exact text. As I read "full length of the groove" I have to wonder if that direction is parallel with the cable or at right angle to it.
 
al hildenbrand said:
Thanks for the exact text. As I read "full length of the groove" I have to wonder if that direction is parallel with the cable or at right angle to it.
Click to expand...
My guess is that covering the cable is the point, so I would think the whole groove does not have to be covered, just the part of the groove where the cable resides.

[edit: in other words, parallel or perpendicular wouldn't matter]
 
mivey said:
Originally Posted by mivey
for the full length of the groove in which the cable or raceway is installed."
Click to expand...
This is what I think Al was referring to.
Click to expand...
For that matter, where is the measurement of length to be taken?

If I consider the top of lathe, spaced half an inch apart, to be where I measure the "length of the groove", how far do I measure? Or do I measure at the bottom of the groove, which would be present for 1?" at the stud or joist?

And what if I cut a groove in a 2x4, on the 1?" side, and I make it able to handle several cables so one dimension of the groove is 1?" and the other dimension of the groove is 2". Which dimension is the" length of the groove"?

Until the IRC gives up more of it's meaning, this passage is ambiguous with respect to what a groove is or how it is measured.
 
al hildenbrand said:
For that matter, where is the measurement of length to be taken?

If I consider the top of lathe, spaced half an inch apart, to be where I measure the "length of the groove", how far do I measure? Or do I measure at the bottom of the groove, which would be present for 1?" at the stud or joist?

And what if I cut a groove in a 2x4, on the 1?" side, and I make it able to handle several cables so one dimension of the groove is 1?" and the other dimension of the groove is 2". Which dimension is the" length of the groove"?

Until the IRC gives up more of it's meaning, this passage is ambiguous with respect to what a groove is or how it is measured.
Click to expand...
I think you are making it too difficult. I think it is a waste of time trying to define if the horiz or vert dimension of a cut as the actual length dimension. Just make sure the cable is covered and I think you would have it.

Don't be this guy:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j4XT-l-_3y0
 
mivey said:
I think you are making it too difficult. I think it is a waste of time trying to define if the horiz or vert dimension of a cut as the actual length dimension. Just make sure the cable is covered and I think you would have it.

Don't be this guy:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j4XT-l-_3y0
Click to expand...
:grin:

Heh!

And I would offer the caution about common sense applying. This whole thread keeps veering into the "intent" area, instead of the actual text of the regulations, as grounds for failing the OP photo installations.

I totally agree with you about common sense of covering the cable with the nailplate, but ivsenroute introduced this additional regulation. . . To be fair to him, I think it should be discussed, earnestly and in detail.
 
Let us not forget:

NEC 90.1(A) "practical"
NEC 90.4 "..making interpretations of the rules"

NEC 110.2 "approval"

Approved: Acceptable to the Authority having jurisdiction.

I wear both hats, I am an electrical contractor and in 3 municipalities I am a building and electrical code enforcement officer. I don't always agree with everything from both sides but I am more understanding.

We are here to safeguard life and property and unfortunately all codes have gray area and are subject to interpretation.

If anyone thinks that all codes are black and white, they are sadly mistaken.

Again, there is a process available for appealing the decision of an AHJ, and as an AHJ, I have no choice but to abide by the decision of the appeal board even if they side against me.

You can nit-pick all of the sentences and meaning/intent that you want to but only the AHJ is charged interpreting the codes for enforcement.

IMHO
 
Let us not forget that in 2007 an HVAC worker was killed when he was electrocuted as he ran a screw into an unprotected wire in a wall.

So rather than spend time and effort just for the sake of arguing to prove a point, think about the family of the worker who was left behind because of a missing protector plate.

This is why we have codes, to protect, not to nit-pick reasons why it is OK to get away with something because that is not how you interpret it.

It is apparent that the AHJ in this case called it out and the contractor will make the necessary changes to comply with the interpretation of the AHJ. I too would have taken the high/safer road and called it out.

Good luck getting the manufacturer of the protector plates to approve the use of their product in that particular case IN WRITING.
 
Sorry for the delay....I needed to do some work...:roll:

Here is the relavent facts from UL2239:

1 Scope

1.1 These requirements cover hardware for the support of conduit, tubing, and cable, such as HANGERS, STAPLES, STRAPS, and similar devices for installation in accordance with the National Electrical Code, NFPA
70, and the Canadian Electrical Code (CEC), Part I.

1.2 These requirements also cover STANDOFFS for nonmetallic-sheathed cable and PROTECTOR PLATES.

1.3 These requirements do not cover hardware for use with surface raceway, wireway, or busway systems, sprinkler systems, and other piping systems used for fire protection service, hardware for use with lighting fixtures, or hardware for grounding and bonding applications.

1.4 These requirements do not cover:
a) Hardware intended to support boxes (see UL 514A or CSA C22.2 No. 18.1),
b) Conduit and cable fittings (see UL 514B or CSA C22.2 No. 18.3),
c) Reducing washers (see UL 514B or CSA C22.2 No. 18.3),
d) Pulling grips for cable or cord (see UL 514B or CSA C22.2 No. 18.3),
e) Cable ties (see UL 1565 or CSA C22.2 No. 18.5), or
f) Positioning devices (see UL 1565 or CSA C22.2 No. 18.5).
Click to expand...


Now the all important definition:

3.8 PROTECTOR PLATE: A means to provide protection for cables or tubing from nails or screws in concealed installations.
Click to expand...

Notice that it does not mention anything about "Conduit or Cable Support".

Reading further into the specification for General Use:

4.3 A component shall be used in accordance with its rating established for the intended conditions of use.
Click to expand...

The Materials are defined:

5.2.4 In the United States, a PROTECTOR PLATE shall be made of steel a minimum of 1.6 mm (1/16 in) thick, and shall be provided with corrosion protection in accordance with Clause 5.3.1.

In Canada, a PROTECTOR PLATE shall be made of steel a minimum of 1.3 mm (0.05 in) thick, or other materials of equivalent resistance to nail penetration. A PROTECTOR PLATE of ferrous metal shall be provided with protection against corrosion in accordance with Clause 5.3.1.
Click to expand...

The corrosion protection specification:

5.3.1 A ferrous metal HARDWARE DEVICE shall be protected against corrosion by a coating of zinc. A zinc coating shall have a thickness in accordance with Table 2 as determined in accordance with Clause 6.3.
Click to expand...


Protection Plates are not applicable for pull, impact, and related specifications because their use does not require these tests.

As a manufacturer of these plates, I can tell you that they are NOT intended, nor LISTED for support of cable or conduit. For those of you that think this is ok, than you should be fine with someone using a double or single gang steel cover bent over the NM in the same manner. There is no difference. Both components are not intended for the application.

IMHO this installation should be cited for improper use of a component.
 
http://www.arrowfastener.com/FMPro?-db=web.fp5&key=33244&-img

So, using this listed UL Arrow T75 NM staple to support and secure the NM is the solution.

Use the #7514 within 12" (or 8" as required) and then every third joist (or stud - assuming 16" centers) to tack. . .wait, I mean, secure, (NOTE: see the label on the box in the image above) the NM and then I can apply the nailplates exactly as shown in the OP photos.

Two of every three nailplates on a run across otherwise lathe covered joists (or studs - assuming 16" centers) require no change at all.

Maybe these staples are already behind the nailplates in the OP photos :wink: .
 
Last edited:
Al gets a gold star for this one. Make that two gold stars! One for persistance and the other for being correct. :D

I've been with you from the start and nobody has convinced me otherwise.
 
Al,

Seriously, not to beat this horse anymore mercilessly than it has been already...:rolleyes: With your reasoning, why even use "protector plates"? Just use a single gang, steel, blank cover? http://www.tnb.com/ps/fulltilt/index.cgi?company=TNB&part=58C1

Either way, you would be using a component in an application for which it was not intended, nor designed for.


The purpose and intent of a protector plate is that it is to be nailed onto the face of a stud over the area where wires are running 'through'. The fact that you would be bending the protector plate, or placing it directly on top of the NM cable is exceeding the intent of its design, and an obvious mis-application...IMHO

Here's our description of the Protector Plate:

Protects cable running through wood stud, from nails and screws.
Click to expand...
http://www.bptfittings.com/specification.asp?CATALOG_ID=732-SP


Here is T&B's:

Cable protector - protects non-metallic sheathed cables or raceway type wires running through wood studs, joists, rafters, or similar structural wood members from accidental nail, screw or drill penetration. No nails required.
Click to expand...
http://www.tnb.com/ps/endeca/index.cgi?a=nav&N=4294960962


There may not be staples behind those plates...:rolleyes:
 
electricmanscott said:
Al gets a gold star for this one. Make that two gold stars! One for persistance and the other for being correct. :D

I've been with you from the start and nobody has convinced me otherwise.
Click to expand...

I'll give him the first gold star ,for persistance,..
and a red tag if he uses the nail plate as shown in the photo.:grin:
 
So I guess when I flattened out a nailplate, drilled holes in it and fastened it to a metal stud to protect my MC cable, I was in violation. Now I'll never be able to sleep at night. :rolleyes:
 
paul said:
So I guess when I flattened out a nailplate, drilled holes in it and fastened it to a metal stud to protect my MC cable, I was in violation. Now I'll never be able to sleep at night. :rolleyes:
Click to expand...


Just horrible!! I'm sick....:rolleyes: :D
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top