Igniter for Instant HW heater

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Re: Igniter for Instant HW heater

Does 110.3(B) trump 422.16?

If one disagrees with the other, which do we adhere to?

If I have an appliance that allows a cord, but is fastened in place more securely than allowed for in 422.16, which do we comply with?

:confused:
 
Re: Igniter for Instant HW heater

Originally posted by georgestolz:
Does 110.3(B) trump 422.16?
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I do not know which one is more Trumptacular ;)


Originally posted by georgestolz:
If one disagrees with the other, which do we adhere to?
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I wonder if that would ever happen? :confused:
 
Re: Igniter for Instant HW heater

Originally posted by jwelectric:
Originally posted by sfav8r
The almost identical Bosche model comes with a pre-installed cord. Virtually nobody would have a problem with that unit being plugged into a receptacle. The unit installed in this house for practical purposes is the same except the cord was field-installed. I realize the NEC may view them differently as a result of the pre-instlled cord, but I would make the point that their acceptance of the pre-installed unit pretty much eliminates the argument of 422.16 because the installations are otherwise identical. If the Bosch unit is considered easy enough to remove for service and repair, how can it be argued that this unit isn't? \
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It is so simple. The model that you have mentioned comes with a listed cord and the model in the original post comes with out one.
422.16 addresses those that come with out a cord and states that it is required to be hard wired.
The one you have mentioned comes with a cord and is listed for cord and plug connection.
We have a instant hot in the barn that came with a cord and plug. I chose it so that in the winter time it could be unplugged and drained with out the chance that the breaker would be turned on again.

It is not the job of the inspector to say that some come with cords so all should be allowed to be cord connected it is his job to enforce the code whether we like or not.
Being this appliance is not one of the types listed in 422.16 it will be required to be hard wired.
:)
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JWELECTRIC,

You missed my point, which admitadly was not expressed to clearly. What I'm saying is that if the argument against adding a cord in the field is that the unit is installed to securely to comply with 422.16, then how is it the same appliance that comes with a cord is AOK? Does anyone really think it was the intent of the NEC to prevent the igniter of such an appliance from being plugged in? If so, why?


George made pretty much the same point...but with far fewer words :D

Does 110.3(B) trump 422.16?

If one disagrees with the other, which do we adhere to?

If I have an appliance that allows a cord, but is fastened in place more securely than allowed for in 422.16, which do we comply with?

[ December 04, 2005, 11:59 AM: Message edited by: sfav8r ]
 
Re: Igniter for Instant HW heater

Originally posted by iwire:
I wonder if that would ever happen? :confused:
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It happened to me on Friday. We're dealing with a hard-plumbed heater that cannot be readily interchanged with it's replacement. Cord connecting it per it's instructions is pretty much illegal, according to 422.16.
422.16 Flexible Cords.
(A) General. Flexible cord shall be permitted ...
</font>
  • <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">(1) for the connection of appliances to facilitate their frequent interchange or</font>
  • <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">to prevent the transmission of noise or vibration or</font>
  • <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">(2) to facilitate the removal or disconnection of appliances that are fastened in place, where the fastening means and mechanical connections are specifically designed to permit ready removal for maintenance or repair and the appliance is intended or identified for flexible cord connection.</font>
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">
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Most plumbing techniques do not include quick-connects for the plumbing connections to the heater.

Therefore, in this case, 110.3(B) conflicts with 422.16(A).
 
Re: Igniter for Instant HW heater

Originally posted by georgestolz:
Originally posted by iwire:
I wonder if that would ever happen? :)

If it came with a cord and was plumbed the same way, the cord would need to be removed and the unit hardwired.

Right? :D

Edit: brought last post in for context.

[ December 04, 2005, 12:45 PM: Message edited by: georgestolz ]
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Re: Igniter for Instant HW heater

Originally posted by sfav8r:

If I have an appliance that allows a cord, but is fastened in place more securely than allowed for in 422.16, which do we comply with?
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Here is the installation instructions for the TK-D20 you posted.

Electrical Connections
The T-KD20 requires a 60 Hz 120 VAC electrical
power supply, and it should be properly grounded
in accordance with the most recent edition of the
National Electrical Code, ANSI/NFPA 70 and any
local codes. In Canada, all electrical wiring to the
heater should be installed in accordance with the
Canadian Electrical Code, CSA C22.1 Part 1, and
any local codes. Do not rely on the gas or water
piping to ground the metal parts of the heater.
CAUTION: Label all wires prior to disconnection
when servicing controls. Wiring error can cause
improper and dangerous operation. Verify proper
operation after servicing.
? A means for switching off the 120 VAC power
supply must be provided.
? Wire the heater exactly as shown in the wiring
diagram.
? A green screw is provided in the junction box
for the grounding connection.


I can?t see anywhere that it allows it to be cord and plug connected. However I do see where it requires a switch to be installed for a disconnecting means.
 
Re: Igniter for Instant HW heater

Originally posted by georgestolz:
[...But the plumber could. I see.

In any case, the manufacturer would need to "intend the appliance for cord and plug connection" to meet with the second part of the third method of the list. Got it.

So, despite the listing, the plumber would need to install the appliance with "ready interchange and replacement" in mind, in order to install a cord.

The heater needs to be hard-wired. :)

If it came with a cord and was plumbed the same way, the cord would need to be removed and the unit hardwired.

Right? :)
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Re: Igniter for Instant HW heater

The plumber is not supposed to be installing the electrical circuit.
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Mike, the NEC is basing it's permission on the mechanical and fastening method of the appliance:
(2) to facilitate the removal or disconnection of appliances that are fastened in place, where the fastening means and mechanical connections are specifically designed to permit ready removal for maintenance or repair and the appliance is intended or identified for flexible cord connection.
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If it's not plumbed for ready removal, the cord is not permissible, whether the factory intends a cord connection or not.

At least, that's what I'm seeing.
 
Re: Igniter for Instant HW heater

Originally posted by georgeslotz
Does 110.3(B) trump 422.16?

If one disagrees with the other, which do we adhere to?
Click to expand...
Originally posted by jwelectric
It is my opinion that the code would have precedence of the listing of an appliance.
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This is what I come up with George?s question.

2005 cycle
110.3(B) Installation and Use. Listed or labeled equipment shall be installed and used in accordance with any instructions included in the listing or labeling.
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Should one of these water heaters come with a cord already installed it would be a violation to remove it.
:)
 
Re: Igniter for Instant HW heater

What if the cord isn't mentioned?

George, read the last six words of your code quote above and let me know what you think.
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Well, I think they are contradicting the thought that having an appliance listed with a cord means that ripping the cord off will violate the listing.

They give us a conditional permission based on two conditions, which I will bracket to make the two conditions easy to see:
(2) to facilitate the removal or disconnection of appliances that are fastened in place, where (the fastening means and mechanical connections are specifically designed to permit ready removal for maintenance or repair) and (the appliance is intended or identified for flexible cord connection.)
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If the fastening or mechanical connections are permanent, then it appears that this section is ordering you to remove the cord.

edit fix quotes

[ December 04, 2005, 07:46 PM: Message edited by: georgestolz ]
 
Re: Igniter for Instant HW heater

Here's an idea, if the water heater comes with a cord, install a receptacle. If the plumber does not provide an easy means of removal (i.e. unions) per the instructions, why should the electrical be at fault, red tag the plumber.

If the unit does not come with a cord but the instructions allow one, hardwire it if no "plumbing unions" have been installed.

[ December 04, 2005, 08:36 PM: Message edited by: jim dungar ]
 
Re: Igniter for Instant HW heater

But it's an NEC problem, why would the plumber care? Can you really tag a plumber for electrical problems? :D
 
Re: Igniter for Instant HW heater

George lets say the hvac installer installed a unit but didn`t affix the manufacturers amperage sticker but just wrote with a marker 5 kw.So you put on a 2 pole 30.Should you be tagged for no manufacturers sticker on unit ???
 
Re: Igniter for Instant HW heater

Yes, but that doesn't mean that I have to do the legwork to correct the problem. They can tag me and then I can tell the tinner to correct the issue. :)

I haven't seen a quick-release furnace, either. :p
 
Re: Igniter for Instant HW heater

Page 6 of the instructions show an extension cable in the parts included chart. I couldn't find mention of it in the text. Could it be a pigtail???

In the code section being thrown around it mentions intended OR identified for flexible cord.

Identified (as applied to equipment). Recognizable as suitable for the specific purpose, function, use, enviroment, application, and so forth, where described in a particular Code requirement.

If it has 1/2 inch KO to accept a cord connector and nothing in the instructions to prohibit a cord then in my opinion it's fine for the cord.

What is there about this appliance that would identify it as being not suitable for flexible cord??
 
Re: Igniter for Instant HW heater

Minor Victory

As I mentioned earlier, I had contacted Takagi who verbally said that a cord was fine.

I got a call from them today saying that they never intended for the unit to require direct wiring and that after reviewing 422.16 thay are changing their instructions to specifically allow for a field addition of a grounded UL approved power cord :)

It will take a while for this to filter to the field, but they said the online version of the instructions could be changed right away.
 
Re: Igniter for Instant HW heater

So now you just have to deal with the electrical inspector making a determination that the plumbing installation meets the requirements of 422.16 "where the fastening means and mechanical connections are designed to permit ready removal".
 
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